Our nation’s pledge………….

Today’s a big day in our nation’s course of history. It could be decided today whether or not “under God” will disallow the reciting of our national pledge of allegiance within our public schools.

The fact that this is even up for debate is a sad state of our society. The pledge is not a prayer, nor a religious proclamation, and really shouldn’t even be a political issue. It’s a moral issue…………something too many of us have been suckered into thinking can be determined by our own preferential tendancies or comprehensions. A society without standard is not one of unity………………and we are to be the United States.

The pledge, simply put, is a statement of what freedom is all about. The pledge is what stands behind our service men and women who continue to defy the tyranny that insists upon the vulnerable, whether in this country or across the globe. It’s heritage, it’s foundation, it’s the stronghold of our future. And last I checked, patriotism is not a religious practice. There is no doctrine or Bible or code of membership. It’s defending the rights of everybody here and preserving the freedom, and the responsibility of maintaining freedom, for every man, every woman, and each and every child.

For those who choose to deny those two words contained in our pledge, understand this: Even atheism is a proclamation of faith and something merely believed in. In the practice of true equality, there has to be some room for fair practice. In this case, simply put, no one has decided for you who God is. It simply says “under God” and you have the right to determine, under our nation’s freedom practice, to decide who your God is.

Beyond those two words, we all profess to be patriotic and we watch each other’s backs on the battlefields and help each other, indiscriminately in times of need. In light of those unquestioned practices, why can’t we stop this nit-picking of everything that might even indicate Christianity?

This is not a political issue and we’re wrong to think it should be. The individual, moral responsibility, to practice our share in the balanced preservation of our freedom republic, is our duty.

I spent some time reviewing some of the posts and comments from a year ago regarding “Support Our Troops”. I encourage you all to take some time today and review some of that material. It made me realize that today, our nation is under attack again. Not by a terrorist, but somebody embedded in our society who wants it to be all about him. This nation is all about US. And freedom should be given from the people to the government, not given from the govenment to the people. Freedom granted of a government is no longer a peoples republic and upon the fears of our fore-fathers, we will have failed in preserving what was given to us.

It’s time to start turning this around…………….

Ken,

Great post. You’re very grammatical compared to me, but let me say this. I firmly believe the word God has many meanings and to each his own. When they take this out of our pledge that has stood strong for so many years, it does show our society has weakened. If we as voters choose to continue to ignore who we vote into office, it’s our own fault. I’m as guilty of this as anyone, I don’t research the candidates as much as I should. Thanks for the reminder.

I would like to see the words removed. I believe that the majority of people/kids/whoever, reciting the pledge, most of the time because they are pressured into it, recite it without any comprehension of its meaning. What is worse is the recitation of those two words, Under God, without any comprehension of the meaning. I believe that in most cases, those words have no more meaning to most people than the phrase that you hear everywhere you go. OH MY GOD!.
I would honestly like to see religion left out of government and its institutions. It would be better than having it monkeybuttized. It would be better than having hypocrites and non believers doing things in the name of their supreme being with the intent of furthering their own cause.
The public school system will not teach what Under God really means. It just won’t happen. Parents, you must do this. Teach the kids the values they need by both modeling and instructing. The government, the schools, pledges nor meaningless generalist prayers offered by non believers will not do it for you.

I’m in agreement w/Kid. KEEP THE PLEDGE the way it is. I’m so sick and tired of this bleeding heart political correct B.S. Always tip-toe’ing around trying not to offend anyone. It seems like we’re always trying to cater to a select few. I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but I bet the majority of U.S. citizens would want to keep the pledge the way it is.

It’s like the Freedom of Religion Foundation coming down here to La Crosse and Forcing the city to remove the 10 commandments from Cameron Park.

I know this is going to be a hot topic. Should make for good convo.

Sorry, guys. Have to disagree. I want freedom from religion. We non-believers grow up to be wonderful, responsible tax-paying citizens, too.

Captain Cat

I am in total agreement with Slop and Kid…. as Wooly indicated, kids should be taught values and the foundation of all laws in this nation are based on the Ten Commandments. To me it is a sad day in our nation when the highest court in the land is debating wether we should make students recite the pledge with the words “under god”. Students that don’t understand “Under God”, don’t understand the rest of the verbage in the pledge too. This should be made a priority by teachers to teach the meaning of the pledge of allegence just as I try to understand what the meaning behind words in a prayer….not just recite it and consider it a task completed. Keep God in America. To me removing “under god” is taking the seperation of church and state to far. God is the supreme being and the father of Jesus Christ…to others he is muhomed or budha (sorry about the spelling)…it is only the athiests that could be offended by this and that is a small minortiy. This is a republic in which majority rules…maybe in the next election we should vote on this issue as with gays and marriage and let citizens make the decision, not the supreme court.

I am with you 100% Kid!!!

Woolybugger…I understand and respect your point of view and as a teacher for 27 years(the last 18 in 4th grade) I can tell you that The Pledge is NOT mandatory for all students to stand and recite…nor do they HAVE to say the words “under GOD”
I have had Jehovas, Buddhists, agnostics and athiests in my classrooms and I was bound by previous laws to afford them these options. Most just stand silently and no-one even notices.
By the same reasoning, it doesn’t make sense to take away one freedom to satisfy another, especially when one is a large minority in this cause.
Our “Good Book” tells us to love everyone…especially those those who disagree with us or are different. Thats what its all about. A lot of Christians have died(and visa-versa)to defend the right to even have a Democracy to Pledge to.

We just have different viewpoints as to where you go if you died for this country….. XXXXXXXX
I know where I’d like to go. …..just my .02 worth.

Captain…I totally respect your views/opinions….as that is your right, but explain to me how taking out “under GOD” from the pledge gives you, or others “Freedom from Religion”?? The phrase “Under GOD” doesn’t imply any particular religion or group, including athiests, nor is any particular religion being pushed upon you. Our common name for our GOD is “GOD”, not allah, or bhudha, or whoever….is that the problem??

This isn’t meant for you..but should we be forced to change it to “Under whatever you believe”??? I don’t think so. Let’s remember that the Pledge is an Allegiance to the United States of America, not religion.

American is founded by those trying to escape religious prosecution, so take “Under God” however you may, because that’s what it is, Under whatever God you may or not believe in.

Good points Gursky

I do not want to start a huge debate, but here I go. If we remove “under God” when does it stop. Will we have to reprint all our bills (money) because they say “In God We Trust.” It is getting to the point of who ever screams the loudest or has the biggest backers or the most cash wins the debate. I will bring up the commandments here is La Crosse also. Moving that monument was not a majority rule event. A small number of people – most of them not even from the area stated that they were bothered by it, well what about the majority that weren’t?

In my opinion if the monument bothers you don’t look at it, If you don’t believe in church don’t go, if you don’t want to say “under god” don’t. But for the rest of the class that wants to shouldn’t they enjoy the same right? We all enjoy and believe in different things, and it is great that this country allows us to do that, but no one is making our kids say the pledge, look at things that bother them, or go to church if they don’t want too. Why do we have to make/change laws for people that oppose these ideas when we have no laws for people that agree with these ideas.

Sorry about the soap box –

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm This really is a religious statement, and yet???? I am not christian, but I am a patriot…I love my country, I spent 6 years in the U.S. Marine Corps, and was WIA(Qua Viet..1969) I would fight again, if asked to do so…..I do believe we need to teach patriotism to the children of this country. I teach 4th grade, and we say the pledge every day, and we know what it means, we talk about it, and hopefully I will have a hand in creating some new patriots that we sorely need in this country. Does “Under God” make a difference, from my experience, I really don’t think so..

Just a quick regroup here…………..

What’s being argued today is not whether the words “under God” should be removed or left alone. What’s being presented is that BECAUSE those words are in that pledge, or even available in that pledge, that the pledge itself shouldn’t be recited in the classroom. Those words are being used as a reason to see pledge recitals prohibited. The whole pledge!

Excellent discussion so far guys!

I too support leaving the pledge the way it is. This country was founded by Christians that wanted to escape a government that dictated in what way they could worship. Now I know there were other important factors that ifluenced this action and I support those as well. I’m not a devoutly religious person, I’m lucky to make it to church for Christmas and Easter, but I believe this country was founded on Christian principles. Those ideals are being eroded away every time an issue like this is lost to political correctness.

Every time you turn around our culture is being erased by political correctness and the ideals of socialism. Everyone is not the same and hopefully never will be, that is what makes this country great. What you call your god or if you choose not to believe is still your choice. Through actions like this our ideals, choices and freedoms are being taken away. Hopefully all people will realize that having choices (freedom) is far better than being mandated to believe others ideologies.

These attacks can come in many ways no matter what your issue is: hunting, gun rights, fishing, ATV’s, driving an SUV, wearing a head scarf, or having a 10 commandments memorial. People are trying to take away your freedoms, don’t give them up lightly, you probobly will never get them back.

My vote is to keep America strong and allow freedom to ring regardless of your beliefs. For me I choose to support the Pledge, and the freedom to choose what I believe. Too many people have fought to preserve these pricipals to give them up lightly.

HNTNBUX says:
“but I believe this country was founded on Christian principles. “

Well, it wasn’t. It was founded on very secular principles. Take the time to truly read up on it.

Regardless, the country is not inhabited solely by Christians. We rarely remember that.

Captain Cat

Whatever happened to “majority rules”? The Constitution says separation of Church and State. Not separation of God and State. It was meant to keep one denomination from influncing the Gov’t. and our leaders. Everyone is so worried about being politically correct that we let a few squeaky wheels shape the way our country makes decisions. Its no wonder we need Amendments to the Constitution to preserve our rights.

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HNTNBUX says:
“but I believe this country was founded on Christian principles. “

Well, it wasn’t. It was founded on very secular principles. Take the time to truly read up on it.

Regardless, the country is not inhabited solely by Christians. We rarely remember that.

Captain Cat

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I believe it was the Pilgrims who left because of religious issues but the forming of the nation, more than 100 years later, did involve non-Christian (Protestant) leaders. These men did not profess Christianity or a belief in it’s doctrine but they did agree there were principles within that doctrine that should be upheld because regardless of any religious attachment, they were good rules to follow. They didn’t want to recreate England either so the secular view had to be present. The best solution was a free republic, to let the people decide for themselves, as a nation. But even in a secular view, they had little faith in our ability to maintain such a responsibility. We’re what…………..228 years later now and look at the erosian of the free design. Secular humanism has not a foundational doctrine strong enough to sustain itself and this has been proven over and over and over and over throughout the history of many nations and peoples. Our secular forefathers had the wisdom of recent enough history to know that principles of the Protestant doctrine had to be allowed to give structure to the new government. Without it, man is just man, fallible, imperfect, and without any historical basis to justify any action of what is right or what is wrong because it lacks origination. Where did the rules come from and where are they going? Shove that question to the wayside and you still have the history…………unrelatable to today’s people………… and through it, the disbelief that we could ever repeat history. All the cycles of human history are taking place before our very eyes and if anyone believes they’re above this, they’re one step ahead of accomplishing it than those who resist it. Why? Do honestly think history has ever been repeated where the people of that time didn’t think they’d do it better?

We were the first govenment of it’s kind when they rolled out the game plan. Nowhere in the world could you find what was found here. Can we still say that? No, we can’t. Did the world change or did we change? Well, across the globe we have impacted much but I do know this. There are still many places in the world where you can be killed for not practicing the national religion. We’ve never had that here. We’ve always allowed complete demonstration and proclamation of what we believe without threat of repremand, provided the “practice of the faith” didn’t cross any legal lines. “God” was a loosely implemented term to demonstrate that.

Secular humanism, is just another personal belief……… It’s no different from any other religious practice…………. except that it has no foundation. It has no basis. There is nothing within it to support how anything should be. How do you build a nation on that and still maintain any order? Can’t be done. Therefore, ideals of religious doctrines must be “borrowed” because “that’s just a good idea”.

Think……….. without somebody’s religion, how did it become wrong to steal? Murder? Lie? Disobey? Dishonor? Covet? Envy? Adulterate? Incest? Molest? Cheat? Extort? Blackmale? Throughout our prisons are people who believe there are just causes for committing any one of the above depending on their own interpretations and justifications. What basis made it wrong? How is it right for some and wrong for others? Without an answer to that question…………where is it going? How do you draw any lines at all? The only help and hope is history and unfortunately, this behavior has proven over and over throughout history to be destructive and unsuccessful.

Whether the faith is accepted or denied, furthur research clearly shows the influence of it’s presence and it’s contribution even to it’s denouncers.

Also, there is the countless examples of those who have misused religion or faith to abuse and overpower others. It’s no mystery why some people want nothing to do with it. But regardless, the truth of the creation is that without the principles of the Protestants, there was no foundation in which to base the new Declaration. If it didn’t happen within the 13 colonies, it was adotped long before there ever was a 13 colonies.

Interesting conversation guy’s. I started thinking about what the constitution really says so I did a search and came up with this:
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

To me, this say’s the government can’t establish an official religion, thus the statement “FREEDOM OF RELIGION”.
It dosen’t say FROM RELIGION! I believe the intent of our forefathers was to prevent the government from establishing an official religion and then persecuting those who believe something different. If I remember my public schooling history (I think this may even go back to elementry school!) one of the reasons we fought to gain independance from England was to escape the governmental (Kingdommental?)persecution for believing in something different than the King! I don’t believe that the phrase “under God” promotes any single religion or in any way persecutes any individual for his or her beliefs (or lack therof for that matter). In my opinion, this would meet the criteria of both the letter and the spirit of the law.

I also found some interesting reading on the topic with some interprative dialog here: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/htm_hl?DB=topics&STEMMER=en&WORDS=religi+freedom+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=http://wwwsecure.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html#muscat_highlighter_first_match . I know it is a long address but you can cut and paste it into your address bar.

Having said all of this, I find it interesting the same ammendment gives anyone the right to completely disagree with me and publicly say so!

Great topic! I will watch with much intrest.

John

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It’s like the Freedom of Religion Foundation coming down here to La Crosse and Forcing the city to remove the 10 commandments from Cameron Park.

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Did this really happen?

Gianni,

Yes this has happened, It’s been dragging on a little over a year now. The monument was was on public land (cameron park). The city sold the piece of land to a private owner (can’t remember who), but they are still fighting to have it removed completely. It’s stuck in the courts right now. Unfortanetly though, It looks like it will have to be removed in the end.

Slop….In Marshfield WI. there is an old monument of Jesus on top of a globe with a religious theme inscribed below it…..it is across from the Wildwood Zoo on private property along Hwy. 13. About 5 years ago a group petitioned to have it removed until they found out that an area church owned the property…well to make a long story short the city made them put a fence around it with a sign that indicated the City of Marshfield does not endorse this statue or its religious beliefs and is owned by a seperate entity blah blah blah etc…. now that to me is government intruding on a group of individuals rights. Also most of the pilgrims that came to America and created the constitution believed in God, just did not want the Christian Church of England forcing there beliefs on them or else…. Ken, you trully have the gift for writing and making sense of what you write.

Slop, it’s unfortunate that people have taken anti-religious zealotry to the very extreme they fear from believers.

BOR Item #1 has already been cited, but here is is once again:

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Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

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The city fathers of LaCrosse are not Congress and cannot be bound by Amendment 1. The Wisconsin constitution reads as follows:

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Sec. 18. The right of every man to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry, against his consent; nor shall any control of, or interference with, the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious establishments or modes of worship; nor shall any money be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of religious societies, or religious or theological seminaries.

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One might make an argument that the statue was a violation of the Wisconsin constitution, if it were the case that other religions (say, mohammedeans) had petitioned to erect their own statue and were denied.

Perhaps the athiests could even petition to erect a plaque on which they personally take credit for all of His blessings and the prosperity of this country while mocking the “pagan” deists and Christians who once founded this “secular” country:

• “God… has formed us moral agents… that we may promote the happiness of those with whom He has placed us in society, by acting honestly towards all, benevolently to those who fall within our way, respecting sacredly their rights, bodily and mental, and cherishing especially their freedom of conscience, as we value our own.” –Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:197
  
• “I believe… that [justice] is instinct and innate, that the moral sense is as much a part of our constitution as that of feeling, seeing, or hearing; as a wise Creator must have seen to be necessary in an animal destined to live in society.” –Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1816. ME 15:76
  
• And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.” Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781
  
• “that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his Aid?” Franklin
  
• “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.” -Benjamin Franklin (Gianni note: BF is a purported athiest)
  
• “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship.” –Patrick Henry (Gianni note: Notice freedom of religion in non-Christian countries)
  
• “Statesmen…may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.” –John Adams
  
• “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” -John Adams
  

Let’s wrap this up:

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“I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers– and it was not there… in her fertile fields and boundless forests– and it was not there… in her rich mines and her vast world commerce– and it was not there… in her democratic Congress and matchless Constitution– and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.” — Alexis de Tocqueville, author of Democracy in America

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Freedom of religion in this country was a “gift” from a sympathetic Christian people that is now being abused.

(can some admin-type fix the formatting on this thread? It’s 2x as wide as my screen, also I noticed that regular HTML tags are no longer working, have they been turned off?)

For those who do not believe that this two words should be in the pledge, that is their right. I also think that they should not stop there but not use anything from the government with these words on it. So……….take a look at the money in your pocket and get rid of it. If you need any help, let me know.

hey guys,

I am going to say, that i grew up with the pledge in place at school. I did pray to God while serving my country for 3 years. I also think that our kids should be able to partake in the same thing to help them understand to love our country and be thankfull for our freedoms. if this little sentence is removed, how is that being free, or having freedom?

shane

I’ll also help with the money .

Let’s also not forget that we are a republic of the Majority. We elect officials to represent the wants of the majority. (or atleast that’s how it’s supposed to work). However, due to the nature of political agenda, things like this happen due to select minority groups trying to rid “God”/Religion from every aspect of living, and abusing the judicial system to force their views upon the majority.

I know this might cause some controversy, and I don’t want to offend anyone, but I probably will…. In my opinion……I find it very sad when situations such as gays coming out of the closet and getting married is celebrated…and we watch God/Religion basically going into the closet. It’s almost as talking of God/Religion had become forbidden. Why??

As for the LAX issue….I’m sure it will make it’s way to the Supreme court. Maybe not our instance, but one just like it. Rulings such as the one about to come from the “Under God” case, will become the norm. Let’s just hope our Supreme Court is conservative enough to salvage some morals/decency in this great country.

Once again I want to re-iterrate that everyone’s opinions are their own and respected as such… and it doesn’t make anyone here less of a person, unless they are catching more fish than me.

I can’t help but chime in on this one. America has been called a nation laws. That’s probably what separates us from so many other countries. To Capt. Cat and those who take the same view: Just where do our laws come from?? I’m reiterating what Kid said earlier but it bears repeating. If you say from us, that is, within us, our moral fabric, then how do you establish truth? On what do base an absolute sense of right and wrong, good and bad? This is why we have a fluctuating morality in America and now we have to deal with issues like, why can’t same sex partners get married? If you use man’s personal, internal convictions to establish right and wrong and ultimately our laws, you’re building a system based on very sandy ground, i.e., a rotten foundation. Which is exactly what the Bible says, “When the foundations are destroyed, what are the righteous to do?” If we don’t get our sense of right and wrong from outside of ourselves, moral values shift from what used to be considered normal to the bizarre and degrading. “Everyone does what is right is his own eyes,” and we all know how terribly biased we are toward our own desires. Thank you Gianni for posting those quotes from some of our founding fathers. Read them CaptCat. Read them and see what this nation was REALLY founded upon–not secularism. I have read the words of this country’s framers and I find nowhere, repeat nowhere, where they were trying to establish secularism. They knew that without a bowing of the knee to some Divine standard would ultimately result in national demise. The reason we have so much moral degradation and consequent issues today is because we have BECOME secular. Taking the phrase, “under God” out of the pledge is yet another step in that direction. Is that where we want to go? Leave it there, I say, and on our money as well. “Righteousness exalts a nation.”

Last I heard, it was quite the show in that courtroom yesterday, but no decision has been made just yet. Both sides of the case have been interviewed and are claiming confidence in a victorious verdict for themselves. The media is predicting this to go to a higher court rather than any verdict being handed out.

Troubling is the fact that the opening statement mentions children of 4 and 5 years of age. His daughter, who he claims he’s suiting on behalf of, is 3rd grade or older by her mother’s statement and this little girl has claimed no opposing view to the words she’s been asked to recite. In fact, volunteered to lead her class through the pledge on the first day of her 3rd grade year. Upon further inspection, it may even be speculated that this is an act stemming more from a bitter divorce than a personal conviction.

However, the debate continues within our legal system regardless of it’s originated serving purpose.

We are ”one nation under God.” Thats one if the main reasons America was founded by the pilgrams. We are the most blessed nation on earth. Ever think that it might be because America is the country that spreads the Gospel more than any other nation? Something to think about.
Thanks, Bill

Amen, Bill. What most people don’t realize is, we will lose our “most blessed” status if we continue to wage war against God. Ironic, isn’t it, that those who reap a blessing from the hand of God turn and curse and deny Him His rightful place.

I was watching t.v. last night, and there was a scene in courtroom, and behind the Judge’s chair was “IN GOD WE TRUST”. Don’t you think if they have “Under GOD” removed from the pledge, that the courts should look no further than their own courtroom as the next place it should be removed? Anyone else find that ironic?

I’m sure “In God We Trust” will be next.

“Under God” was not originally in the pledge. It was added in 1952 I beilive. Because Eisenhower wanted to seperate us from the Russian communists. So now that the Russkies are gone, the ‘under god’ should too.