Are You Kidding Me?

Anyone notice it is Friday? Make it a great one! Please keep and open mind to all new things that bounce your way.

Ive heard for years the main reason theres so many Illegals is because its hard to get citizenship or temporary work permits legally. The reason being its because of the process it takes to do it legally. If this is true why don’t they just make it a simpler process, atleast make it this way for temporary workers.

I listend to a farm owner on the radio a few years back,who depends on field workers from mexico to pick 100% of thier farm and the other farms around this area. This owner said its very hard to get a green card, and a simpler process to come here and work was wanted by the farm owners and the field workers.

Wouldn’t it be more effective and work better for everyone if there was a simpler process. They would be able to keep better track of the workers, they would all pay taxes on each check issued and most of all they wouldn’t be illegal and the money spent trying to find and deport them could be better spent in some other way.

Migrant workers are going to come here to work on the farms no matter what, the farmers need them and ask them to come here to work so why not make the process work better.

My boss just hired an American Mexican who was born in Brownsville Texas and his family moved north 3 years ago. He walked up on the job a few days ago and asked if he was hiring, he now works and helps me in what I’m doing. I went through two guys who were young helping me on a roof because it was too hard or it was too hot, probably both. He got right up there and didn’t complain once and we got the roof done in short order.

He was telling me how much they get for picking tomatoes in Southern Illinois where he used to work occasionally with his family years ago, his whole family would drive from here to southern Illinois just to pick tomatoes. He said the workers get 30 cents for a basket. It takes 12 baskets to fill a bushel which makes it $3.60 a bushel. He said the tomato fields heat up because the plants are dark green and hold the heat of the day and he said everybody sweats but the mexican are used to it, they are conditioned to the heat and they know that Americans don’t work the fields because its too hot but the Mexicans are used to it.

I for one like to work but can’t afford to pick tomatoes at those rates even if I wanted too and its only for a few months when they are ripening up until it frosts. I see the illegal issue but whos fault is it. I can see the farmers need for pickers because no one else wants to do it because of the heat in the fields. If I farmed tomatoes who would I hire to do the work if no one else showed up. I’m all for doing this legal but do the laws need to be changed, just my point of view.

Your right Mossy, if the process is broke, fix it… don’t tear down the fence and have a free for all. Do people actually realize what that would to do our country and economy ? Enough jobs are getting shipped out of the country as it is… now you want to bring all wages down with an influx of what…. at least another 50 million illegals ? Don’t kid yourself, this is what it would be with wide open free for all borders. (does the younger generations know what Ellis Island even is ??? Do they think it is just by the Statue of Liberty ? I also have a clear picture of how some can be so naive to wordly issues)Yes, there are hard working illegals here (making somebody rich)… there are just as many not working and committing crimes. Careful what you wish for…. you cannot just open it to some foreigners, you will have them coming in from the North, South, East and West…. you cannot pick and choose who to let in.(hence my terrorist comment, they can come in too, no problems ) Not only the law abiding hard working illegals are coming to this country.. if anybody believes that.. well I have a bridge for sale cheap…

I see what your saying too Glen. America just can’t let everybody in, it would take about 3 days for the word to get around all over the world and there’d be a flood of people coming in. I remember talking about the free trade agreement when it was to about to be put into effect. I thought to myself well we’ll see what happenes. Years later we’ve handed over a whole manufacturing industry too China. Part of the worlds problem is the whole world did this, the corporations who thought of a dollar first instead of what would happen to the work force here in America. Alot of fortunes were made and are still being made by those companies who think of thier dollar first moreso then the American worker. No one can compete with the cheap wages they pay in China and other cheap countries. The polititions know what to do to straighten this out but because of those big donations coming from those companies going to the polititions they don’t do anything about it. Thier excuse is it will drive down prices in America and keep them there. I for one know we are a top notch manufactureing nation but we also need a little protection too, from unfair trade practices.

I don’t know why the chief of police did what he did but anyone can surmise a few ideas, political pressure, farms need the workers, maybe he did it because he knows temporary worker permits are hard to get when they need the work and the farms need the help. I’m all for letting in mexican workers but not for just throwing citizen papers at them all or any other group of people. Look what deregualtion to china has done, it would be the same with mexican immigrants and any other immigrant from any other country. We don’t need our gates flooded and the standard of living gains turned around to the way they were 50 years ago. The American worker has gained some things and he shouldn’t be put into a position where he would loose them, like some are trying to do.

I’m not sure how so many people can be absolutely clueless concerning the impact of all the “undocumented” aliens in this country. I recently began researching to find some hard figures, but it will take some time. What I have found so far astounds me. The economic impact on all of us is overwhelming. It is common practice for the families of illegals to apply for food and housing assistance, which burdens all of us. There is a widespread scam that many use, where the wife/mother applies for assistance, stating that the husband/ father is not in the picture, has abandoned them, etc. They receive assistance readily. Meanwhile the real story is that the man is indeed there the whole time, taking a job from a citizen. Quite often there are several families living in one household, so the cost of living is shared. This frees up most of their income to send for more family members from outside our borders, and the problem escalates exponentially.

Many are hard workers, but that does not give them a free pass to circumvent immigration procedures to come and live off of our system.

The farming industry has been widely infiltrated, taking the jobs that teens and young families trying to get a start in life used to perform. The building trades have been impacted in a much deeper manner. How many of us do not know someone from the trades who works much less frequently the last decade or so? This is due as much to the infiltration of illegals into the trades, as from any economic downturn. They take jobs with unscrupulous employers,displacing a journeyman tradesman who has paid his dues and perfected his craft.

Yet another industry decimated by illegals is the restaurant/food industry. The vast majority of the mom and pop small town restaurants in much of the country have been surplanted with those run and staffed by a series of illegals from Europe and south of the border, changing ownership and location every few years to avoid taxes.

The list goes on and on. Anyone who cannot appreciate the impact this situation has on each and every tax paying citizen is either unable to comprehend economics, or is so crippled by bleeding heart empathy that they just don’t care.

Those who say that we are hated because of how we look at or treat our immigrants really puzzle me. Would your answer be that we allow our great nation to be convoluted to the extent that we must try to care for all the worlds poor and disheartened? Where do you draw the line, when is enough enough? Really????

I neglected to mention my idea of a solution to this whole problem. If we could pass a law which fined employers enough to make hiring anyone without documentation financially inviable, and we required legal documentation as part of any entitlement or health services, the problem would take care of itself in short order.

I think it would be reasonable to pass a law, give employers a year to make necessary adjustments, then fine them the equivalent of the total compensation they have paid any undocumented workers still in their employ. A second offense by any employer, in my bill, would be a federal felony punishable by hard time.

The waiting period would also allow time for many to find their way back to their country of origin. I would even suggest some assistance with busing them to their city of origin for those coming from south of the border.

The fines levied could be put toward the building and maintaining of a real border barrier. No need to round them up and send them anywhere, with no free ride and no job, the options would be very limited.

I am sure there would be some serious oposition from the leaders of our neighbors to the south, but they are as responsible for this problem as anyone.

Please don’t read me wrong, I am far from a racist or isolationist. It is just high time the flood is stopped, and the recovery begun.

I agree John, make it hard for the farmers to hire anyone whos illegal by fining them stiffly. I’ve heard the same thing here about immigrants, especially in the restaurant business, the Serians, Lebanese and other mid easterners, owning those businesses and not showing any profit for the first 3 years, which is legal, then turning it over to relatives who in turn don’t have to show a profit for another 3 years and Id bet the Mexicans are doing it too.

Social services for illegals has to be stopped too. If they can’t prove they are legally here then no help. Another problem solved when it comes to temporary workers is take a %atge of each check they get and put it twards any help they may need in a hospital, the way thier doing it now its free and paid by the taxpayers, so why not take 10 to 15% out of thier wages for thier health needs. If I and others can find solutions to these problems then why can’t the polititions.

Illegals along side the ones who are legally here are making wages, some of them pretty decent wages too so why not get a percentage of each of thier checks for the things they need. If they need temporary houseing then take another percentage of each check. If you add it all up for everything they need, medical, houseing, food, then thats alot going into a system setup for immigrant workers. This woukd pertain to all temporary workers from every other country too, Maybe if they were charged these rates maybe it wouldn’t be so attractive for them to come here and get a free ride.

or is so crippled by bleeding heart empathy that they just don’t care.

This statement paints quite the picture. I’m glad there are some people that have high levels of empathy. I’m reminded of some extremely influential people throughout history who created massive positive human progress through empathy and listening.

I look forward to hearing about your research.

They sent my Census form back! … AGAIN!!!
In response to the question: “Do you have any dependents?”
I replied –
“12 million illegal immigrants;
3 million crack heads;
42 million unemployable lazy people,
2 million people in over 243 prisons;
300,000 leftovers from Katrina;
and 535 more in the U.S. House and Senate.”
Apparently, this was NOT an acceptable answer…

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or is so crippled by bleeding heart empathy that they just don’t care.

This statement paints quite the picture. I’m glad there are some people that have high levels of empathy. I’m reminded of some extremely influential people throughout history who created massive positive human progress through empathy and listening.

I look forward to hearing about your research.

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C.P., I am far from devoid of empathy. I just see things in a different light when it comes to the issue of illegal immigration, and what it costs all of us in the long run. I do not blame the individuals who come here for the chance at a better life. I do blame those who come here for a free ride on the taxpayer’s dime, and that roll is extensive. If they are law abiding indivdual, they would come here through lawful means. That is a simple premise.

I am all for helping the downtrodden, disadvantaged and disabled of the world, but not through manipulation of our system and total disregard for our law and process. It is a very clear issue for me.

I have a daughter who is severely impaired both physically and mentally. She is totally dependent on her mother and I for even the most basics needs. It is a very demanding life we have chosen, to keep her with us and do for her every day of our lives. When her medical, therapy, and caretaking bills got to be too much for us when she was 14 years old, we applied for assistance with some of her medical. We also asked for some help in providing her care, as we are both having some serious health issues from the years of lifting, transfering, bathing, feeding and generally caring for her. We had not had ONE day of respite from this demanding routine since she was born in 1994. The state of Illinois denied us. Repeatedly. A family of four in Illinois cannot recieve assistance if their total family income exceeds $24K a year, withour a special waiver that is virtually impossible to acquire.

We reached a turning point last year. My wife tore her rotator cuff, and I herniated two discs in my back. All due to caring for our beautiful little girl. We came to the point where we felt we had to move her to an institution in order for us to recover physically. When we informed the State of these issues, we finally recieved a waiver and now get 20 hours of help a week from a visiting caretaker.

I make a decent living at a local manufacturing plant, but am far from wealthy. We spent, for the first 16 years of my daughters life, approximately 25% of our disposable income on care for her, over and above what my insurance paid. This is why I am so passionate about those who abuse and scam our system to obtain free health care, food, housing, etc. while I work every hour I can to make ends meet and care for my family in an honorable manner. The depths of our resources as a nation are finite, and I believe strongly that those resources should be used first to take care of our own, whether they be disabled, homeless, or incapable of caring for themselves. There is where my compassion and empathy abounds. Those who come here illegally, take jobs and services from those of us who live and work here legally, disregard our laws, manipulate our entitlements, and are generally raping our nation, they recieve very little empathy from this household.

Its funny how the illegal issue always finds it way in to fishing forums. In terms of illegal immigrants cost to the country, you can find different foundations and pacs with completely different numbers for everything. So it is important that you look at how figures are reached and read a series of contracting reports, to see how one group can cite billions of dollars in uncollected social security as a net benefit of illegal immigration, and another group cite billions in social services spent on illegal aliens as a loss. If a organization cites figures without giving citations and study methodology, then they are full of ***** (numbersusa is a great example of this, if you find their presentations convincing send me a pm and ill explain how you are being tricked via meaningless numbers into buying horse manure as an aphrodisiac).
Apart from that, I think it is important to understand that the American economy, and American business as a whole benefits from illegal aliens. Having a cheap and exploitable labor source keeps wages down, which leads to higher profits for businesses, and these high profits then lead to economic growth. It doesn’t matter if wages are low for American manual workers, because economic growth is not dependant on their quality of life or purchasing power. To be competitive both domestically and internationally, requires American businesses to emphasize profits above all else, and part of this is keeping wages as low as possible, and insuring competitive advantage. What I am getting at it that, ideas like “illegal is Illegal” are fine, but they mean nothing in terms of the economic realities of this country. Businesses want to pay low wages, the political system in the United States is geared mostly towards higher profits for large businesses, and this is why so many industries are dependent on illegal labor and why there is no real will to enforce immigration laws (Bush’s stance toward illegal immigration is a good example of this). I guess what I’m trying say is that we need to look at systemic reasons for the proliferation of illegal immigration and stop focusing on individuals crossing the border to better their lives. Those people are doing what anyone would do in their situation, but the fact that there are few legal migration routes for manual workers, and that it has been relatively easy to work illegally in this country for most of its history, have roots in our economic system.

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C.P., I am far from devoid of empathy. I just see things in a different light when it comes to the issue of illegal immigration, and what it costs all of us in the long run.

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It is called reality John

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What I am getting at it that, ideas like “illegal is Illegal” are fine, but they mean nothing in terms of the economic realities of this country.

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It scares me to think that some people actually would believe this

You are your wife are decent people John. I think the same way you do and others do too. Thats why alot of people are calling for closeing all those tax loop holes so everybody and the corporations pay thier fair share, no more, no less.

I heard on the news the other day That Warren Buffet pays less tax as a percentage then his secretary does, he made this statement. Somethings wrong with this when a Billionaire pays less tax then his secretary and General Electric and Exxon Mobile dosen’t pay any tax at all while others struggle to take care of thier own, somethings wrong here. I for one and others too know what to do to change things in all these subjects. How come they don’t do it, favoritism just because they make jobs? Things have to change and be reorganized to make things work and to be made fair to everybody, if things aren’t reorganized the same will keep happening and then comes exhaustion. I’m working 7 days a week right now to help my daughter pay her bills. Shes a waitress and tips aren’t good in the summer, people do diffrent things in the warmer months and have less of an appetite, all this because things are so expensive. Its time to close all the loop holes in everything to make things work like they should for everybody, no favoritism is my answer, everybodys got to share the load and then things will work for everybody. Immigration and tax laws is a good place to start.

[quote This is why I am so passionate about those who abuse and scam our system to obtain free health care, food, housing, etc. while I work every hour I can to make ends meet and care for my family in an honorable manner. The depths of our resources as a nation are finite, and I believe strongly that those resources should be used first to take care of our own, whether they be disabled, homeless, or incapable of caring for themselves. There is where my compassion and empathy abounds. Those who come here illegally, take jobs and services from those of us who live and work here legally, disregard our laws, manipulate our entitlements, and are generally raping our nation, they recieve very little empathy from this household.

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John, thanks for sharing your story. You show persistent and unwavering love for your family. I know some who have a difficult time doing just that. Be assured, too, that in no way was I accusing you or anyone in particular of being unempathetic. Like I’ve mentioned before, no matter how thin the pancake; there’s always two sides. Thanks for sharing your sides.

I wonder how long this thread would be if there was 4% unemployment and the economy was robust and growing?

I will not get into this discussion because I know this topic is far more complicated than most make it. Also I know the solution is not making it easier for for them to become legal and the solution certainly isn’t to round them all up, deport them and build a wall.

I doubt illegals use social services and commit crimes more than many other people you want to group together. My biggest beef would be that they are not all paying taxes.

Anyone notice how crappy Chipotle got when they raided them and deported the workers?

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Anyone notice how crappy Chipotle got when they raided them and deported the workers?

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I did notice – Now that I go there Twice as much

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Anyone notice how crappy Chipotle got when they raided them and deported the workers?

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I did notice – Now that I go there Twice as much

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So are you saying you like slow poorly built burritos?

QUOTE ” wonder how long this thread would be if there was 4% unemployment and the economy was robust and growing? “

and I wonder what the unemployment rate would be, if all illegals were removed and those able to work, that are on the gov’t take right now, filled in their positions… what the real rate would be ??? maybe 0%… who drudged this one up again ???

Fishthumper did.

That’s a lot of consumers to deport.

I am sure a lot of people who were making over 50K a year who are now getting a check from the government going swoop in for those jobs. I mean, we had like zero illegals when the unemployment rate was 4%.

And it was all illegals getting those ARMs that caused the housing market to crash.

And it shouldn’t cost us much to round them up and deport them, right?

Personally I liked it better when we blamed the Canadians for our problems. Where is my pitch fork and torch?

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QUOTE ” wonder how long this thread would be if there was 4% unemployment and the economy was robust and growing? “

and I wonder what the unemployment rate would be, if all illegals were removed and those able to work, that are on the gov’t take right now, filled in their positions… what the real rate would be ??? maybe 0%… who drudged this one up again ???

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Its good to dream.

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Fishthumper did.

That’s a lot of consumers to deport.

I am sure a lot of people who were making over 50K a year who are now getting a check from the government going swoop in for those jobs. I mean, we had like zero illegals when the unemployment rate was 4%.

And it was all illegals getting those ARMs that caused the housing market to crash.

And it shouldn’t cost us much to round them up and deport them, right?

Personally I liked it better when we blamed the Canadians for our problems. Where is my pitch fork and torch?

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You need to think outside of the box…. I am thinking we hire a bunch of people to start the round-up Coyotes get paid by the head to smuggle them in… I want to say around $4G’s each.. if we would pay unemployed people $2K for every illegal they deliver to the border, if they would catch 25 a year (1 every 2 weeks), there is the $50K annually If we as Americans didn’t “do something” because it was so hard, or so daunting.. where would be ??? I used to get mad when they were always calling a prior generation, the “Greatest Generation”… I am thinking maybe they have it right. It is possible to walk to the north pole.. you just have to take that first step