It was the “It will take more than voting….” comment that threw me. If we can vote in a president with the balls to revoke the treaty, it would be a worth while vote!
The whole “Sovern Nation” inside the US borders thing that rubs me the wrong way. It’s not exactly an issue someone is going to win an election on. Not yet anyway…..
-J.
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It’s not exactly an issue someone is going to win an election on. Not yet anyway.
Exactly.
Your basicly right Jon.
The courts do NOT have authority such as the congress does to over turn the key, basis for all of this(which goes WAAAYYY beyond netting walleyes), which is the Sovereignty situation. THAT can be changed by the voting public via who votes within congress.
The Treaty Rights case CAN be over turned by ANY U.S. President. ( I now believe the “new” Supreme Court would over turn the original ’98 order)
Eyeslayer…It IS in fact someone could win an election with….at least in Minnesota! If campaigned right.
Remember…83 percent of Mn. voters approved the “right to fish and hunt” amendment. What percentage of THESE voters would NOT be in favor of ending gill netting walleyes during the spawn?!
I think the passion within Mn. voters for the outdoors and protecting it could and should become a VERY big, decisive issue if someone had the guts to run with it.
Who would do that? I tried to get Norm Coleman on that and he like most are afraid of the “race card’…even though…it is ALL about equal rights…nothing less.
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Who would do that? I tried to get Norm Coleman on that and he like most are afraid of the “race card’…even though…it is ALL about equal rights…nothing less.
I don’t disagree with what you say at all. It is possible, like you say, if a the campaingn is run correctly. I just think it’s unlikely (although not impossible) as evidenced by Coleman’s response. Politicians are cognizant of the effects of their opinions on particular groups of voters. Because of that, many won’t touch the issue with a ten foot pole. Notwithstanding the President revoking the treaty, I really think a related, but new, issue needs to be raised and heard by the SC to make any headway. Although, I’m not too sure what that would be.
Did the SC’s decision have anything to do with the constitutionality of the treaty? What I mean is, did the SC say anything about whether the treaty must be honored for a constitutional purpose, or just that the treaty was not unconstitutional? I’m assuming if they held that the President can revoke the treaty, then they decided on the later, but I’m not sure.
The builder…
The finisher.. 
And to think she was appointed by Regan..
I know this is a heated argument with many strong opinions on both sides but let’s just play devils advocate here for a minute..in a very, very unlikely and idiotic situation. Let’s say some space aliens came down, overtook our country and let us stay here but forced us onto reservations while they made new laws in the land belonging to us. We were stripped of most of our culture, our ways of life, etc. But these alien dudes had the common courtesy to grant us the permission to continue on with very few of our traditions, one of those being fishing. Wouldn’t you want this tradition passed down to your grandchildrens children and so on and so forth without persecution from said green skinned alien dudes? I hate to raise a stink about this but sometimes we need to put the shoe on the other foot and take a look at the bigger picture. Yes, some of the guys out there netting are unethical about their practices just as many other folks are when it comes to regular old fishin’. Theres always gonna be a few rotten eggs here and there no matter what that tend to spoil it for others, All I’m basically getting at here is that these broad accusations about an entire tribe or race aren’t the way to debate this topic.
Because you cant call what they do is “fishing”. Its called raping a resource in which they do nothing in return to keep the lake going. Take, take, take with nothing to give back. Red Lake is going for round 2. How many of those casino $$$ have gone back into Mille lacs? Other than buying up and boarding old resorts to make the shoreline look dilapidated.. This is thier culture. Take as much as you can, now! Buffalo, walleye, deer, turkey, bald eagles. And take a chit back on to the soil those goods have come from..
Jeremy, what is the current population of the Mille lacs Band?
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Because you cant call what they do is “fishing”. Its called raping a resource in which they do nothing in return to keep the lake going.
Actually from a fisheries management perspective it doesn’t matter what method is used for harvest and doesn’t matter what time of the year the fish is harvested. There is no different effect on the fishery if you take a fish in February than if you take a fish in April. Both the fish harvested in February and the fish harvested in April won’t be breeding anymore.
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This is thier culture. Take as much as you can, now! Buffalo, walleye, deer, turkey, bald eagles.
In all fairness, they are limited to their take of Walleye. That is also a very broad brush stroke to cast on an entire culture. The “take as much as can” mentality is not exclusive to one culture in the U.S. (e.g., your example of Buffalo).
How bad has the fishing been on Mille Lacs since the netting and slots went into effect?
I know the area i used to fish slowed a bit early may so i have adjusted(found other places)and it seems to be working for me. 
….. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all!
Those words don’t really mean much if the government and the courts of this “nation” are going to allow seperate laws to be used in the management of our ever dwindling natural resources.
I also am going to play devils advocate for a minute here. First off, don’t get me wrong here, I hate what they are doing to the resource. A treaty was signed giving Indians the right to net fish out of this lake. They are doing what the treaty says they can do. Is this being done for tradition sake, for a source of income, just to spite the white man, or maybe a little bit of all of the above. That is not the point though, they have the right because of a treaty that was signed and is still in effect today. So why is everyone mad at them for doing what they have the right to do? This energy needs to be focused on the people who have the ability to make the changes that need to be made.
Here is another thing to think about. When the white man came to this land the Indians already lived here. They did not have the concept of owning the land, they just lived on it. So the white man comes and says I own this and I own that. Then they “give” the Indians some crappy land for them to live on. Hardly seems fair considering they were here first. You don’t think it was tough for a culture adopt our capitalist culture after sharing everything with there whole tribe and family and not having to have money to buy things. Their lives were turned upside down and they had nothing.
So, bottom line is we crapped on them and now they crap on us. Can you blame them. Yes, they take a sickening amount of fish that are stocked with our tax dollars in what most would consider a not so ethical way. They have that right. I fish Mille Lacs quite often both on the hard and soft water, and the last few years have had no problem catching some very nice fish. I see thread after thread of huge walleyes from the lake. Yes, most are CPR. The point is it is hard to dispute that we still have a great fishery here.
~SKINEBOY~
What’s going to happen when the Band decides to talk half of the total harvest? Milacs will end up like those Wisconsin lakes, 1 or 2 fish, no more tournaments, an economic disaster. 
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Wouldn’t you want this tradition passed down to your grandchildrens children and so on and so forth without persecution from said green skinned alien dudes
If the “tradition” was passed down to the Grandchildren and netting was done for strictly tradition and gathering for their family, no problem here. 
However, MOST and I say MOST of these people are not doing it for tradition, but rather $$$$.
Have you seen the boats and equipment they use to do this??? 
99.5% of them are not following tradition in the ways of gathering their fish. 
Especially when it is my tax dollars buying their rigs. Tell me it was tradition pre 1837 for them to be given boats.
Steve Fellegy said it best, this is not a RACE issue this is about equal rights for everyone living in the USA. What if we were to single out the “White Man” and have all White Contests or Events (Beauty Pageants, Baseball, Football, or even have “All White” fishing lakes, etc.)??????? We would be called “RACISTS”, and rightfully so. That is why the “Whiteman” has tried diligently to end all this segregation in the last 40 years and treat everyone as equal n matter what race, culture, etc. Yet there are still and very highly promoted events like all Black Pageants, all Black Schools, Indians with special privileges, & etc.. Now I ask you who really are the racists here???
It is to the point now, that we have law enforcement officers, politicians and government agencies that are afraid to enforce laws that are put in place by the Constitution, State & Local Laws against these different communities. WHY?? Because the fact they will be called and singled out as a RACIST?????? Or even worse because local law enforcement will not receive the support they need from higher authorities and government. Now that is messed up. 
When will someone stand up not only to the Indian Community but also to all the other Communities that are continually bullying their way through our system and “TAKING MY RIGHTS AWAY FROM ME”????
And for the statement that “WE” did the Indians harm. BS, You or I or even our Grandfathers did nothing of the sort. Much less was any harm inflicted to the Indians living today or in the past Century by the “Whiteman”. If anything, in my opinion the Indians are creating their own Harm by keeping themselves isolated and a sovereign nation. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the 1837 Treaty calls out for the Indian Culture to adapt and blend into ours. Well that is almost 200 years ago. How long do they get?????
We have illegal immigrants coming here to our country every single day that have more rights than I do. They can celebrate their Holidays and beliefs anytime anywhere even in the middle of Airports. Yet, I am expected to hide my beliefs or fear the rath of being “not politically correct” or offending someone. But don’t worry, it is ok for them to do it.
I’m off my soap box now. Sorry for my Rant, but these two issues really get to me and under my skin. I usually do not get involved in political debates, but this just tears me up inside.
This is a good debate, and like I said I am merely playing devils advocate.
“If anything, in my opinion the Indians are creating their own Harm by keeping themselves isolated and a sovereign nation.”
How do you consider this harm to them? They have the best of both worlds because of this. They get all of the rights we have plus some extra rights granted to them in a treaty from 1837.
“I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the 1837 Treaty calls out for the Indian Culture to adapt and blend into ours. Well that is almost 200 years ago. How long do they get?????”
It’s simple, they get until the government grows some balls and isn’t scared to make some changes for fear of being called racist. With the way things are going right now I don’t see things changing in my lifetime.
~SKINEBOY~
Here’s a little item striaght from the DNR site. Looks to me as of last year the fishery isn’t being threatened at all. The info on the previous year also shows natural reproduction in recent years has been pretty darn good. It looks to me like there is probably a little more cooperation between the DNR and the tribes than most think there is.
The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) will stick with walleye regulations that for the past two years have protected spawning fish while providing ample harvest opportunities at Mille Lacs Lake.
The decision was based on surveys that show a stable population spawning walleye and abundant fish that are 3 to 4 years old, ranging from 11 to 16 inches.
“This is good news on two fronts – a strong walleye population and stable, proven regulations,” said Dave Schad, DNR director of Fish and Wildlife. “For the past two years, these regulations have protected the long-term health of the fishery, allowed excellent opportunity for anglers and have safeguarded economic interests.”
Under the regulations, anglers may keep four walleye up to 20 inches, with one trophy over 28 inches in the four-fish limit. Walleye from 20 to 28 inches must be released. Starting July 15, anglers will be allowed to keep walleye up to 22 inches, with one trophy over 28 inches in the four fish limit. All walleye from 22 to 28 inches must be released. The midsummer change will allow more harvest opportunities when the Mille Lacs bite traditionally slows and the number of fish that die after hooking increases. The slot on Dec. 1 will revert to four walleye up to 20 inches, with one over 28 inches.
Since 1994, federal courts have ruled that the state and eight Ojibwe bands share fish and game in the 1837 treaty ceded territory. To ensure the long-term health of the Lake Mille Lacs walleye fishery, the yearly walleye harvest has been managed so that it does not exceed the safe harvest level as directed by the court order. This year’s regulations are based on a safe-harvest level that state and tribal biologists determined could be increased 18 percent, from 505,000 pounds in 2005 to 600,000 pounds this year.
The large number of walleye hatched in 2003, 11 to 13 inches, will not be harmed under the new regulations, said Ron Payer DNR chief of fisheries management. “If an angler hooks a 11 to 13 inch fish deeply, this regulation allows enough flexibility to take that fish home,” Payer said. “However, we are encouraging anglers to release these smaller fish that are likely to survive.”
The 2006 tribal quota is 100,000 pounds of walleye, which will be allocated among the eight Ojibwe bands. In 2005, anglers caught more than 480,000 pounds of walleye and harvested 197,000 pounds of the 380,000 pound allotment.
The Mille Lacs regulation is similar to special walleye regulations on other popular walleye lakes such as Rainy, Big Sand and Winnibigoshish.
Will the full nets that Bobber talked about earlier be counted against the safe and allowable band harvest?
(“They kept me awake last night at 2am……banging their plastic bins while picking nets? I did’nt know that they could pick nets that late and have them varified for weight back at the landing! “).
Times how many boats at how many landings around the lake? I may be wrong I don’t believe the DNR is supplying around the clock coverage.
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But the fish harvested in April is not being allowed to spawn.
Neither is the fish caught in February. There is actually no difference between the two.
Walleye season closes in Feb. Thats the point, to protect the spawn. And if it were open, sport anglers would never take 60,000 pounds of spawning fish in one month. Its impossible.
The DNR forgot to mention in that article that the Band has requested an increase for next year..
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Walleye season closes in Feb. Thats the point, to protect the spawn. And if it were open, sport anglers would never take 60,000 pounds of spawning fish in one month. Its impossible.
I thought it was closed to protect the fish from “easy” harvesting. Even areas of P4 are closed to fishing during certain months for spawning.
If a fish is harvested in May, on opener, it can’t spawn again come March……..never again.
Lastly for everyone;
If you are against the netting of walleyes, I recommend that you do not purchase any “Canadian” walleye from the grocery stores. Those fish are all netted right from LOTW and other bodies. Netting in Canada has been going on for years. Some lakes have been depleted of fish, others have survived.
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Walleye season closes in Feb. Thats the point, to protect the spawn. And if it were open, sport anglers would never take 60,000 pounds of spawning fish in one month. Its impossible.
The season isn’t necessarily imposed to protect the spawn, but it is used to control the harvest as fisherman would have a heyday if they could fish the spawn. There is similar reasoning behind the night ban. It’s not imposed to protect anything other than to control the harvest.
Like it or not, the only point that I was making is, from a fisheries management perspective, there is no different effect on the fishery whether the fish is taken in late winter or early spring. A harvest is a harvest.
Mr. Wellman beat me to it.
Even areas of P4 are closed to fishing during certain months for spawning.
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Gary can you elaborate on this? I have been fishing pool 4 my whole life and was not aware of any closed areas during the spawn.
~SKINEBOY~
up next to the dam, on the MN side. Isn’t there an area that is closed to fishing in March and April?
Also, down river, there are a couple of spots that are closed (off limits) because of spawning grounds. Signs are posted on the shoreline.
I am almost positive there is nothing up by the dam that is closed. You might be right on areas farther south as I rarely make my way past Lake City. I play golf (I know, what a horrible 4 letter word) with a guy that was a CO in the Red Wing area for many years and we have the discussion of P4 being open year round every spring and he has never brought up any areas that are closed during the spawn.
~SKINEBOY~
The area up by the dam is closed March/April. Not sure how much spawning goes on, but the fish do get bunched up in there. Not to mention, not a bad idea for most boated to stay clear of the dam that time of year – strictly for saftey reasons.
Every sign posted downstream of the dam are not put up by the DNR. They are just locals who put those up on thier property to keep people from fishing those spots. Basically, all of pool 4 stay open year round.
-J.
I was unaware of the closed area. Is it right up next to the dam? Maybe I have never made it up that far. Is it closed, or are there just signs asking you nicely to stay out of the spawning area?
~SKINEBOY~
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