Mille Lacs Businesses: Hard times and closing

  • carroll58
    Twin Cities, USA
    Posts: 2094
    #1289767

    Sounds like the DNR is on the HOTSeat again, this time were seeing an OLD Businesses

    {Copyright CBS / WCCO}
    It’s gotten so bad that a popular restaurant with a 90-year history is shutting its doors. The Blue Goose Inn bar will stay open, but officials said the restaurant is closing and being replaced by a Burger King and Broadway Pizza.

    Thomas is far from alone. Terry Thurmer owns Terry’s Harbor. He says he used to see 300 boats come through on a weekend. This past weekend, there were only 18.

    closing.

    Link to WCCO4: Worst Summer in Years for Mille Lacs businesses

    Will the MnDNR, Governor Dayton and the State Legislators wake up and demand some real changes?

    IMO: Were are ALL AMERICANS, whether your White, Red, Black, Brown, Olive or some other color/heritage or a mix and match of many!


    The Laws and rules should apply equally to ALL and No LAW or regulation should apply to just a select few!

    We need to call for an Outright BAN on Netting/Spearing/Fishing during the Spawn!

    Mike W
    MN/Anoka/Ham lake
    Posts: 13310
    #1187886

    So where are all those people fishing at then or are thay just not fishing this year?

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #1187889

    Related story from the Mille Lacs Messenger:

    http://www.messagemedia.co/millelacs/news/business/article_e86e9cfc-f91d-11e2-bcb9-0019bb30f31a.html

    Tough year for lake businesses

    Messenger archives from the 1930s estimated there were over 100 resorts on Mille Lacs Lake.

    In 1995, the Mille Lacs Area Tourism listed 42 lodging establishments on the big lake. By current Messenger count, there are 33 establishments offering public lodging coupled with Mille Lacs Lake access.

    According to some area resort owners, that number is likely to drop more after the 2013 season.

    “There’s going to be a bunch of resorts out of business this year,” said Greg Thomas of Gregory’s Resort on the west side. “My business is down 100 percent during the weekdays … not 80, not 90, 100 percent.”

    Mille Lacs Lake refused to give up her ice until May 17, nearly a week into the open water season. Historically, opener on Mille Lacs sees thousands of boats plying its waters. In 2013, there were only a handful. The weather stayed cool and wet for much of May and early June.

    According to Thomas, the lake was a month behind the norm, and the season is beyond recovery from a business standpoint. “I’m barely making enough to cover my taxes,” he said.

    Thomas said a cluster of resorts on the south side of Garrison have begun combining reservations in order to put enough anglers on their launches to make a trip profitable. “I can’t take out two people in a launch,” Thomas explained. “That doesn’t even cover my fuel.”

    Tim and Tina Chapman own Chapman’s Resort in Isle. Tina is also the executive director of Mille Lacs Area Tourism.

    “Launch service business is definitely down,” Tina said. “People using public accesses and private launch sites are down, too. You can see that by the lack of traffic on the lake.”

    According to Tina, there are multiple causes for the lack of activity. “I think in the beginning it was the weather,” she said. “Now it’s more about regulations.”

    Bait shops have also been hit hard by the scarcity of anglers, and Bill Lundeen of Lundeen’s Tackle Castle in Onamia agrees with Tina’s assessment.

    “The 2-inch walleye slot (18 to 20 inches) and the 2-fish bag limit are completely separate issues,” Lundeen said. “The DNR has crashed the market with this 2 and 2 deal.”

    Lundeen acknowledges that the late ice out, the struggling economy, and high gas prices have all played their role in the perfect storm that resorts and local businesses are enduring, but the regulations have hit the hardest.

    “It’s hard to ignore the elephant in the room,” Lundeen said. “The experiment has gone bad on them (the DNR) and I guarantee we haven’t seen the bottom of this.”

    Lundeen also runs a guide service, and he said it’s hard to make sense of the current regulations. “I’ve had more 28-inchers caught in my boat this year than I have under 18 inches,” Lundeen said. “We’re able to keep about 1 in 13 fish. It’s just stupid.”

    On the west side, Thomas said the numbers were worse. “I went out last night with a group and we got 25 walleyes,” Thomas said. “They got to keep one 18-incher. That’s it.”

    Thomas said on the average he’s keeping 1 in 20 fish on his launches. He’s losing long-time customers, and he says he knows where they are going.

    “I’ve had a crew coming up from Missouri for the past five years, and last week they called to cancel,” Thomas said. “They said they were going to Leech Lake. They said they wanted to eat some fish and they know they can’t do that here. I almost cried.”

    Thomas said that one cancellation alone cost his business over $2,500, and it’s just one of many. “I’m already down about $60,000 this year,” he said. “I don’t know how I’m going to make my truck payment this winter.”

    Rod Scott of Rod’s Bait and tackle in Isle has also seen a lot of his customer base heading north. “My business is down a lot, maybe 25 percent,” Scott said. “A lot of my customers are headed to Leech or Red because they can’t catch any fish they can keep on Mille Lacs. They say that if they can’t even catch enough walleye to make a meal, they’ll go somewhere they can.”

    Scott also places a lion’s share of the blame on the DNR. “You can’t protect all the big fish in the lake for years and expect the small fish to thrive,” he said. “That just doesn’t work.”

    George Nitti of Nitti’s Hunters Point Resort on the east side had a particularly rough start this year. The last of the lake ice pushed into his launch area effectively shutting down his business for the first two weekends of the season.

    “We couldn’t get out,” Nitti said. “We had a lot of cancellations, and we had to cancel a tournament.”

    Nitti said his business has since done OK during the weekends. “Our weekday business has been almost non-existent through June and part of July,” Nitti said. “Weekdays have been horrible.”

    Nitti said high gas prices and restricted slot and bag limits have compounded the problem. Ironically, the upturn in the economy has also hurt business, according to Nitti. “A lot of these guys work construction, and now they want to work more than they want to fish,” he said. “They’re finally working, and they don’t want to take the time off.”

    Tina Chapman expanded on the point. “The people who are coming up are spending less on extra stuff,” she said. “They still want to go on vacation, but they’re not going out to eat out as much, not shopping as much. They’re saving their money and bringing their stuff with them.”

    carroll58
    Twin Cities, USA
    Posts: 2094
    #1187897

    Thanks for the post with additional info Jon.

    steve-fellegy
    Resides on the North Shores of Mille Lacs--guiding on Farm Island these days
    Posts: 1294
    #1187899

    It is laughable and embarrassing to see and hear the bitching and blaming and so very few playing a role in a very possible solution for the future.

    800 plus sign a petition to save smallmouth at Mille Lacs and less than 200 play a role in “Save Mille Lacs Sport Fishing”. Amazing….and this what you/we get now and even worse down the road.

    Thanks to the smart ones that do help!

    mark-bruzek
    Two Harbors, MN
    Posts: 3875
    #1187900

    As reported in the Mille Lacs messenger within the last year:

    The Blue Goose was 3 years over due on paying its taxes. The city was not going to issue a liquor Lic. till they paid them. Within a few weeks the unpaid taxes were paid…

    There may be more to the story, not sure.

    chubby
    Bloomington
    Posts: 244
    #1187907

    I know that this may sound a bit harsh but a few of the business owners have to accept some of the blame themselves.

    I remember reading an article in the Outdoor News this spring and some resort owners and bait store owners were whining about how you would not be able to catch any fish to keep.

    Its seems that the message that they spread is working. They told people that the fishing would not be good and people have listened and responded. Couple that with the less than stellar weather this spring and they really shot themselves in the foot. And the really brilliant thing is they are still telling people that the fishing is terrible because you cannot keep many fish. How about trying to sell the fact that the lake is full of large walleyes and the fishing for large fish is excellent!!!!

    Pig-hunter
    Southern Minnesota
    Posts: 600
    #1187915

    Quote:


    I know that this may sound a bit harsh but a few of the business owners have to accept some of the blame themselves.

    I remember reading an article in the Outdoor News this spring and some resort owners and bait store owners were whining about how you would not be able to catch any fish to keep.

    Its seems that the message that they spread is working. They told people that the fishing would not be good and people have listened and responded. Couple that with the less than stellar weather this spring and they really shot themselves in the foot. And the really brilliant thing is they are still telling people that the fishing is terrible because you cannot keep many fish. How about trying to sell the fact that the lake is full of large walleyes and the fishing for large fish is excellent!!!!


    Jeez! Somebody that finally gets it. I agree with you 100%. Save Mille Lacs sportfishing, fine save it. But spreading negative vibes for the last 2-3 years has done much more hurt than help IMO. At least for the businesses up there.

    I myself have quit going there because of the whining and I know a few others that have also. That is only in my circle of fishin buddies. I would imagine it’s like that all over the place.

    I agree something needs to be done to fix things. But whining and trying to fight the Indians tooth and nail ain’t gonna do it. They will continue to rape away just out of spite.

    Your best shot would be to get some of those Mille lacs Band members on your side about stopping the netting. That IMO, is your only shot as our government will likely continue to cowtow to the tribes. Especially in a politically liberal state such as Minnesota.

    fishmantim
    Posts: 145
    #1187926

    One minute the fishing is GREAT, the next minute its SLOW, next minute theres no bait, next minute the indians have netted the lake out, next minute the people are taking too many bass, catching no eaters, too many floaters…jeeeshh, who can keep up with the whining and complaining? Theres a great big negative cloud over the lake and no one wants to get sprayed with the stuff thats why no one goes there anymore.

    chubby
    Bloomington
    Posts: 244
    #1187936

    So here we have MN’s premier walleye lake that is about an hours drive from a large percentage of MN’s population and the businesses are struggling. Something is wrong with that picture. If you drive up the west side of the lake the resorts are shabby looking rundown dumps in my opinion. Granted there are some very, very nice resorts around the lake, however there are also a bunch of crappy looking dumps as well.

    Here is is another nugget of wisdom for some of the business owners around the lake. If you cannot offer me clean well kept accommodations, something that at least appears to be a current and accurate fishing report when I drop $20.00-$50.00 on bait and tackle in your establishment, or simply a friendly attitude when I patronize your business then you are a moron and deserve to be put out of business so the people who do offer these things may prosper.

    Do not get me wrong there are many great businesses around the lake but there are also many that do not live up to the obligation that they assumed when they opened a business. May the good prosper and the bad shrivel and die a slow lingering and painful death.

    swlund
    Cuba City, WI
    Posts: 395
    #1187940

    This is a little off the subject but still holds true somewhat. There has been several resorts sold out to private individuals as condo units in northern Wis. They could not pay off what they paid for their resort. It was a way to get out from a morgage and put cash in their pocket. Not the reason for some but others it was a way out. Some off this is because of 1-2-3 fish limits and many lakes they have to be under 14 inches.
    I agree that the rules should be for everyone not a select few.

    Jesse Krook
    Y.M.H.
    Posts: 6403
    #1187947

    There has been an 18″-20″ slot in the past, not sure why this year’s slot differs so much??? I blame the media

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #1187959

    Quote:


    There has been an 18″-20″ slot in the past, not sure why this year’s slot differs so much??? I blame the media


    There has been a 2 inch keeper slot in the past, but not 18-20. And never a 2 fish limit.

    -J.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1187962

    Quote:


    I know that this may sound a bit harsh but a few of the business owners have to accept some of the blame themselves.

    I remember reading an article in the Outdoor News this spring and some resort owners and bait store owners were whining about how you would not be able to catch any fish to keep.

    Its seems that the message that they spread is working. They told people that the fishing would not be good and people have listened and responded. Couple that with the less than stellar weather this spring and they really shot themselves in the foot. And the really brilliant thing is they are still telling people that the fishing is terrible because you cannot keep many fish. How about trying to sell the fact that the lake is full of large walleyes and the fishing for large fish is excellent!!!!


    I’m sorry but I agree too. This makes the most sense of everything I’ve read yet.

    I’m smart enough to figure out that the catch and release fishing has been great, but all the negativity has kept me away. I’m not interested in filling my freezer, but I haven’t made the 45 min drive up because it sounds like the lake is doomed, like Red Lake. But we all know how Red a lake is today.

    Mike W
    MN/Anoka/Ham lake
    Posts: 13310
    #1187964

    I agree to. There is a lot more to do on that lake than catch a walleye. Bass, Muskies, crappies, swimming, sandy beaches, wind surfing, camp fires, sunsets, and on and on. Beat the drum on the walleyes situation and kick all those other great activities to the curb. Why doenst the head lines read ” Mille Lacs lake, Full of Trophy Walleyes”?If I was a local resort owner I would be beating down the doors of the local newspapers to run more positive articles on the lake.

    steve-fellegy
    Resides on the North Shores of Mille Lacs--guiding on Farm Island these days
    Posts: 1294
    #1187973

    Quote:


    I agree to. There is a lot more to do on that lake than catch a walleye. Bass, Muskies, crappies, swimming, sandy beaches, wind surfing, camp fires, sunsets, and on and on. Beat the drum on the walleyes situation and kick all those other great activities to the curb. Why doenst the head lines read ” Mille Lacs lake, Full of Trophy Walleyes”?If I was a local resort owner I would be beating down the doors of the local newspapers to run more positive articles on the lake.


    I won’t post on this again but will say that this “general” take by most is very short-sighted. If you guys can’t see the big picture after all that has been said and done…well, then see where your take and do nothing approach has the lake 2-3-4 years from now.

    The harsh reality is what it is. Being in denial will continue the demise and finally complete the crash of the walleye fishery. This reality is NOT our opinion. It is real hard numbers/biology. PERIOD!

    FYI–the lake is “full of trophy walleyes”. In fact, the numbers are very low. Catching starving walleyes that bite 3-5 times per hour with as many as 4 hooks in their mouth is anything but good looking at the real future big picture and health of the lake. Good numbers on the line do NOT mean big numbers of fish in the lake. With 5 times as many fish in the lake years back, the bite was never as good…for most–even in the modern day tech filled boats world.

    Do any of you actually think we feel good or look forward to preaching what we are? A few of us can’t live a lie. We can’t live in the false present and not be smart and look forward. Anything wrong with trying to fix the future? No! Anything wrong with not being proactive looking ahead? Absolutely! The harsh facts/numbers/future walleye numbers of the walleyes is very real. The harsh reality can not be dis-proved.

    Cubby? “How about trying to sell the fact that the lake is full of large walleyes and the fishing for large fish is excellent!!!!” Because it is NOT a fact nor anything close to it. Why would we lie? Your wrong Chubby…

    I am done here…as we will do this without you all that live in denial.

    chomps
    Sioux City IA
    Posts: 3974
    #1187977

    yep a step in the right direction is to market the lake as a trophy wally and small mouth destination. Fact is that those who stay in those resorts are generally from out of state or at least 4 or more hours away. The people who drive up from the cities for a day of fishing complain about how the resort looks as they drive right on by. The majority of the tourism was built on (#1)catching your limit with a (#2)chance at the fish of a life time. Too bad #1 is still king because it is what is coming back to bite everyone. There are so many options for the consumer. I’m seeing the Dakota’s as the place which is expanding right now. Talk to some people at the fish cleaning stations and see what keeps them coming back and spending their money. I’m sure Leech and Winni benefit also. Not so sure about Red as I have heard business is down there also.

    Jesse Krook
    Y.M.H.
    Posts: 6403
    #1187986

    Quote:


    Quote:


    There has been an 18″-20″ slot in the past, not sure why this year’s slot differs so much??? I blame the media


    There has been a 2 inch keeper slot in the past, but not 18-20. And never a 2 fish limit.

    -J.


    Yep my bad but people drive ALL the way to upper red for 2 fish

    Pig-hunter
    Southern Minnesota
    Posts: 600
    #1187987

    Quote:


    Quote:


    I agree to. There is a lot more to do on that lake than catch a walleye. Bass, Muskies, crappies, swimming, sandy beaches, wind surfing, camp fires, sunsets, and on and on. Beat the drum on the walleyes situation and kick all those other great activities to the curb. Why doenst the head lines read ” Mille Lacs lake, Full of Trophy Walleyes”?If I was a local resort owner I would be beating down the doors of the local newspapers to run more positive articles on the lake.


    I won’t post on this again but will say that this “general” take by most is very short-sighted. If you guys can’t see the big picture after all that has been said and done…well, then see where your take and do nothing approach has the lake 2-3-4 years from now.

    The harsh reality is what it is. Being in denial will continue the demise and finally complete the crash of the walleye fishery. This reality is NOT our opinion. It is real hard numbers/biology. PERIOD!

    FYI–the lake is “full of trophy walleyes”. In fact, the numbers are very low. Catching starving walleyes that bite 3-5 times per hour with as many as 4 hooks in their mouth is anything but good looking at the real future big picture and health of the lake. Good numbers on the line do NOT mean big numbers of fish in the lake. With 5 times as many fish in the lake years back, the bite was never as good…for most–even in the modern day tech filled boats world.

    Do any of you actually think we feel good or look forward to preaching what we are? A few of us can’t live a lie. We can’t live in the false present and not be smart and look forward. Anything wrong with trying to fix the future? No! Anything wrong with not being proactive looking ahead? Absolutely! The harsh facts/numbers/future walleye numbers of the walleyes is very real. The harsh reality can not be dis-proved.

    Cubby? “How about trying to sell the fact that the lake is full of large walleyes and the fishing for large fish is excellent!!!!” Because it is NOT a fact nor anything close to it. Why would we lie? Your wrong Chubby…

    I am done here…as we will do this without you all that live in denial.


    Yah, but what happens if the lake crashes? I am pretty sure that they(DNR) will restock it just like they did to Red or Leech and it’ll be back in 3 or 4 years.

    Noone is saying what you are doing isn’t commendable. It is. I just think you are going about it the wrong way.

    Have you even attempted to get any of the band on your side? Maybe trying to bargain with them? Or thought that maybe, just maybe you are wrong and it is more than just netting? Cause without doing that, you haven’t a chance. Sorry, but you just don’t.

    I agree that the netting is stupid and should be done away with. In fact, it is a downright wrong way to harvest fish this day and age. But you are not gonna make that happen by poking a stick in the eye of the tribes. The government will side with them every single time.

    Steve Root
    South St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 5649
    #1187991

    Remember the “Fish Prostitute” line from a prominent Mille Lacs business owner? Sometimes these guys are their own worst enemy.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #1187993

    Quote:


    Quote:


    Quote:


    There has been an 18″-20″ slot in the past, not sure why this year’s slot differs so much??? I blame the media


    There has been a 2 inch keeper slot in the past, but not 18-20. And never a 2 fish limit.

    -J.


    Yep my bad but people drive ALL the way to upper red for 2 fish


    Upper Red has a 4 fish limit with a zero to 20 inch slot. Mille Lacs is the only lake in the state with a 2 fish limit on walleye.

    -J.

    fishmantim
    Posts: 145
    #1187997

    The economy has changed considerably in the last 5-8 years, gas has gone up, bait rules are crazy, weed rules are nuts, and a buck does not get you as far today . I remember when I could make a day of it for $20 and bring home some fish for dinner..not anymore, forget that..times change and unfortuantely I think if your in the fishin and recreation business up there your on the short end of the stick and unless your a good business person your gonna be history, you can blame the DNR, Natives, politicians, the man on the moon all you want but money talks and you guys are not in the mix right now. I will continue to come up for the day though maybe once or twice a season.

    Eric Ahlstrom
    Grand Rapids, MN
    Posts: 137
    #1188058

    There are alot of people to blame. Resort owners and the community have done a poor job marketing the lakes smallmouth and musky fishing. The DNR’s rules do drive people away because in Minnesota it isn’t about catching trophy smallmouth or about catching trophy walleyes or musky… the majority of Minnesotans want to catch a limit of eater walleyes. Just the way it is. If they can’t catch a limit of eater walleyes they could care less about trophy walleyes.

    I have to be honest, I am a bass fisherman and I think the DNR should be managing the lake for trophy smallmouth especially in days like these were the walleyes are hurting. Trophy smallmouth could bring alot of people in if the resort owners got on board and marketed it more and the DNR promoted them more. That isn’t the case though. Instead the DNR lowers the 21″ min to 20″…. I don’t get it. If they really needed a slot they should do a 17″-22″ or 18″-22″…. they should be protecting trophy smallies because that is what bass guys want.

    Bass guys will go a long way for trophy fish… walleye guys will go a long ways for eaters and trophy fish are just a bonus for them.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1188067

    Quote:


    I agree that the netting is stupid and should be done away with. In fact, it is a downright wrong way to harvest fish this day and age. But you are not gonna make that happen by poking a stick in the eye of the tribes. The government will side with them every single time.


    I don’t mean to pick on you because you have the same opinion of about 99% of people. Here’s my opinion about this comment.

    What exactly makes hook and line the “right” way to fish? In fact fishing is actually netting, at least historically.

    I try to keep an open mind when I take a point of view.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1188071

    Is anyone familiar with 5 whys? This helps you get to the root cause of a problem and address it correctly instead of constantly putting out fires to try and maintain normalcy.

    Here goes my attempt at it according to the title:

    Quote:


    Mille Lacs Businesses: Hard times and closing


    Why are ML businesses closing? Lack of business.

    Why is there a lack of business? There are many answers here but it appears as though a combination of harvest restrictions, poor weather and the perception of poor fishing. I think that these can be considered similar enough as one answer.

    Why is the fishing poor/harvest poor? Harvest quotas put in place due to poor creel surveys and netting surveys.

    Why are the survey results poor? Now we are getting close. One of a few things could be at fault. Either lack of fish in the survey nets and creel surveys resulting from low population, OR the surveys are targeting the wrong size fish.

    Why is the population low? Over harvest, poor spawning success, or lack of food.

    Lets split our hands and pursue 2 different answers because I don’t know the answer to the above why.

    Over Harvest

    Why do we have over harvest or poor spawning success? With the majority of the harvest going to the non-tribal anglers, its a tuff sell for me that netting is resulting in a low population. Now netting does seem target spawning walleyes, specifically the males but so does the slot limit.

    Solution:
    Adjust the damn slot limits so we don’t deplete any one class of fish.

    Lack of Food

    Well this is pretty much self explanatory. But it’s pretty evident that the tullibee and perch populations are at an all time low.

    Solution???? No clue.

    So, if you think that removing nets from Mille Lacs is going to solve your problems, think again.

    And no, Steve, I’m not doing anything about it. I’d rather do nothing than do something that won’t work.

    Pig-hunter
    Southern Minnesota
    Posts: 600
    #1188163

    Quote:


    Quote:


    I agree that the netting is stupid and should be done away with. In fact, it is a downright wrong way to harvest fish this day and age. But you are not gonna make that happen by poking a stick in the eye of the tribes. The government will side with them every single time.


    I don’t mean to pick on you because you have the same opinion of about 99% of people. Here’s my opinion about this comment.

    What exactly makes hook and line the “right” way to fish? In fact fishing is actually netting, at least historically.

    I try to keep an open mind when I take a point of view.


    I just think that farming a bunch of fish when they are most vulnerable is wrong, that’s all. Just my opinion.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #1188256

    Quote:


    Solution:
    Adjust the damn slot limits so we don’t deplete any one class of fish.


    As long as the tribes net the lake, this solution is not possible. The slot is set to limit harvest by non-tribal anglers to keep under the court orderd harvest quota. The slot has nothing at all to do with fish managment.

    -J.

    Will Roseberg
    Moderator
    Hanover, MN
    Posts: 2121
    #1188277

    Quote:


    Quote:


    Solution:
    Adjust the damn slot limits so we don’t deplete any one class of fish.


    As long as the tribes net the lake, this solution is not possible. The slot is set to limit harvest by non-tribal anglers to keep under the court orderd harvest quota. The slot has nothing at all to do with fish managment.

    -J.


    DING DING DING

    The sad thing is that even on a website like this where we all care passionately about fishing we can’t all come together and work towards the goal of fixing the politics behind this mess… Unity is a powerful thing! I think we can all agree that it is having undesirable effects leading not only to frustration with walleye regulations but also having ripple effects on regulations for other species such as smallmouth. Whether you agree that it’s being handled exactly how you would or not, Steve is currently one of the few who is choosing to do something about it so PLEASE take a few minutes to stop by Save Mille Lacs Sportfishing and donate to the cause

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #1188325

    Quote:


    And no, Steve, I’m not doing anything about it. I’d rather do nothing than do something that won’t work.


    No offense but please stand aside while those of us who care keep trying stuff until we find a solution. I guess I’m wired different, but I’d rather be trying than standing around critiquing and doing nothing.

    Jesse Krook
    Y.M.H.
    Posts: 6403
    #1188331

    I’m confused on the entire treaty thing. In the treaties I’ve read it states more than 2 native Americans off tribal land is considered a war party. When did this change? Seems to me treaties can be changed, right ? Or am I way off ???

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