Forward Facing Sonar Works Great At Showing Potential But It Ends There

Fife wrote:

Typically when I read these anti-FFS posts I just bite my tongue and move past. How many of you people commenting have actually used FFS? How many of you would consider yourself proficient with it?

It’s a great tool to locate fish and even watch the fish react, but it doesn’t guarantee a bite.

I use FFS sonar for every species, but I don’t consider myself a Muskie fisherman. Last Summer I was invited to fish with a guy who guides for them all Summer. We scoped for 8-9 hours, marked 35, casted to 20-25, hooked 4, and landed one. No fish marked were deeper than 15’ down over 20-40’ of water. For you guys worried about the guys fishing over deep water, the fish aren’t on the bottom! This angler has top of the line gear so the fight is fast, the net is always ready, and when in the net they stay in the water the entire time except for a quick picture. The fish swam away just fine and I would consider the day a success. This isn’t the guy you need to be worried about killing all the fish which is probably true of most anglers that have taken the time to become proficient with FFS.

If you were trying to defend FFS with that story, you failed.
That’s a very above avg day of musky fishing in the pre-FFS days.

grubson wrote:

If you were trying to defend FFS with that story, you failed.
That’s a very above avg day of musky fishing in the pre-FFS days.

Ive had better many times than that. Boated 4 fish over 40″ in a day a few times. Not the norm, but this was before all the 1 foot detailed mapping on GPS units like we have today. They were LONG days and we had no idea we were casting AT fish.

grubson wrote:

If you were trying to defend FFS with that story, you failed.
That’s a very above avg day of musky fishing in the pre-FFS days.

The same can be said about simple sonar finders back in the day! I remember back in the 70’s when I got my first Green Box! Many older fishermen told me “that’s cheating”. Every time something new comes out there’s always those who have negative comments about it. Whether it be FFS, Scopes on Muzzleloader, Crossbow, and the list goes on and on. Usually it’s those people who don’t have it and know nothing or very little about it. Or they don’t like change. At the end of the day it comes down to ethics in the eyes of the users!. Some people use it to slaughter fish day after day just like they used DI, SI etc to do it when that was all that was available. We have some local guides that use it, especially in the winter to fill their clients limits. They bring a second batch out in the same day. As a result a few lakes in Otter Tail Co. have changed the crappie limit to 5 starting this spring. With the popularity of “Ice Castles” there are tens of thousands more fisherman that camp on the lake every week-end so the harvest of fish is huge! Are they going to ban that? I think not! In the end it comes down to each individual to conserve our resources and be a responsible angler!

slowpoke wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>grubson wrote:</div>
If you were trying to defend FFS with that story, you failed.
That’s a very above avg day of musky fishing in the pre-FFS days.

The same can be said about simple sonar finders back in the day! I remember back in the 70’s when I got my first Green Box! Many older fishermen told me “that’s cheating”. Every time something new comes out there’s always those who have negative comments about it. Whether it be FFS, Scopes on Muzzleloader, Crossbow, and the list goes on and on. Usually it’s those people who don’t have it and know nothing or very little about it. Or they don’t like change. At the end of the day it comes down to ethics in the eyes of the users!. Some people use it to slaughter fish day after day just like they used DI, SI etc to do it when that was all that was available. We have some local guides that use it, especially in the winter to fill their clients limits. They bring a second batch out in the same day. As a result a few lakes in Otter Tail Co. have changed the crappie limit to 5 starting this spring. With the popularity of “Ice Castles” there are tens of thousands more fisherman that camp on the lake every week-end so the harvest of fish is huge! Are they going to ban that? I think not! In the end it comes down to each individual to conserve our resources and be a responsible angler!

Comparing the green box to FFS is like comparing a 1919 Model T truck to a 2025 1 ton crew cab diesel with dual rear wheels. It’s an old invalid arguement that has been used over and over again.
Ice Castles don’t tell you where the fish are.
Fish populations are already suffering, like you have seen in otter tail county, it’s happening all over.
People are greedy and irresponsible. Without rules, regulations, and limits they’d take everything and we’d have little to no natural resources to enjoy.

For the record, I’ve used FFS a lot and anyone who says it doesn’t completely change the game doesn’t know how to use it.
I’m not for a ban, but lowered limits and education are the bare minimum that’s required to sustain our fisheries with this tech increasing the pressure on the fish.

CaptainMusky wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>grubson wrote:</div>
If you were trying to defend FFS with that story, you failed.
That’s a very above avg day of musky fishing in the pre-FFS days.

Ive had better many times than that. Boated 4 fish over 40″ in a day a few times. Not the norm, but this was before all the 1 foot detailed mapping on GPS units like we have today. They were LONG days and we had no idea we were casting AT fish.

Exactly. Not the norm, that is the norm now.

I live 20 minutes away from and am on Tonka and Waconia frequently, and am yet to see a floater. So I do not believe you see floating musky’s “often” and you living in StC makes me think you don’t actually come down here “often” either.

Prior to moving to St. Cloud I lived for 30 years in the metro. I was probably on one or both those lakes at least once a week. If you fish Tonka and Waconia frequently and have yet to see a floating musky, then either you don’t actually fish those lakes frequently, things have changed greatly with the musky populations, or you are a blind fishermen.

I fish bass tournaments and FFS is 50/50 for me on if it helps me catch more fish or not, it really depends on the water and type of presentation I am fishing at the time to see if FFS helps me or not.
I fished one musky tourney with a friend about 10 years ago (no FFS). On th way to register in the a.m., we were idling through a no-wake and using side imaging we located a BIG fish. We dropped a waypoint, came back and after 10 or so casts we caught a 49″ fish.
Point is….. you could do it with other forms of sonar, not just FFS.

If it’s not regulated now it will be at some point in the future. Probably once they have an A.I. program that trolls around the lake all day and alerts you once it finds the fish for you.

The point of the musky story is to show FFS is aiding in catching more muskies, not killing more muskies. They’re not finding deep water barotrauma susceptible fish. Catching basin fish with FFS is no more harmful than catching them on the deep weed edge with blades or bulldawg.

If we support muskie stocking, isn’t it because we want to catch more muskies? Isn’t the goal of the MN muskie stocking program to help anglers catch more musies? Isn’t catching and releasing more muskies the ultimate goal? Catching and releasing more muskies seems like something that should be celebrated. Now we have a tool that comes along and helps more anglers catch more muskies, without using more stocking dollars, and we’re going to complain about that. A tool that makes muskies more accessible to kids and elderly or disabled who maybe can’t cast all day. The argument is FFS has made the basin muskies, a previously underutilized resource, too accessible? What?? Is that real?

Never thought I’d see so many fisherman so against catching fish

Comparing the green box to FFS is like comparing a 1919 Model T truck to a 2025 1 ton crew cab diesel with dual rear wheels.

I’m guessing the model T was a lot better than walking or taking a horse.

If you were trying to defend FFS with that story, you failed.
That’s a very above avg day of musky fishing in the pre-FFS days.

[/quote]

I don’t know what there is to defend in regards to FFS. The point of my post is that FFS is one tool to help locate and catch fish, but it doesn’t guarantee success and it doesn’t decimate fish populations. Specifically Muskies in this case.

I am a guide and I’ve hired guides for other species of fish or bodies of water I’ve never fished. As a client I expect to catch fish or see a fish depending on species, and I expect my guide to work hard to make that opportunity happen. I expect the same of myself when guiding.

The trip I referenced above was a great trip. Landing the fish was great, having a couple hook ups and just seeing the fish on sonar and in the area further enhanced the experience. In my mind it’s a much better experience than making clients cast all day to land one fish. After that experience, I wouldn’t hire a Muskie guide that doesn’t use FFS.

For years guys complained how bad trolling was for killing Muskies and big Walleyes. They said hooking mortality was high because of the length of the fight and release conditions. Now guys are using FFS toposition right on the fish, fighting them for 50’, netting them, and releasing them quickly, but we shouldn’t do that because the hooking mortality is too high also. Should we ban fishing?

iMHO
I started using our FFS trolling on western waters that have large water level fluctuations and poor mapping details I look forward as we are trolling for eyes and it helps see the contours/ridges allowing us to be able to better follow targeted depths. I did start to target fish on the bottom/screen snipe and sometimes it works but mostly it is just a screen chase it does help determine fish depth and where to target our BBing I love the FFS on hard water great fun for my wife likes it better than our 10hdAV. So now we own 2 units for her in the xover and I chasing better spots to move her to. I have to say that the only ice fishing she will do is up in ID. I like Tom B you tube vid using only his Side and down screens as always there is a reluctance to new technology and people tend to draw lines on dates and things that they are use to or policies that they like Here in CO on the CO river drainage feds and dOW use dates, policies and political bents on what they call “native “ fish species they allow in the river basins
we work a lot and have very little time to recreate so anything that helps us be more successful is greatly appreciated obviously the general fishing enthusiasts agrees or there wouldn’t be any financial gain for the manufacturers to continue to advance equipment. I guess that I would still be fishing out of 18’ v hull with a 15hp outboard as I did in MN with my grandfather in the early 70s. And there wouldn’t be any interstates to get us there faster My grandfather hated my first bass boat I will admit but I never heard him state that he wishes that he was farming with horses again just my .02 $ maybe it should be my .04$ with all of the inflation we have had

[/quote]
I am a guide and I’ve hired guides for other species of fish or bodies of water I’ve never fished. As a client I expect to catch fish or see a fish depending on species, and I expect my guide to work hard to make that opportunity happen. I expect the same of myself when guiding.

[/quote]
That mentality is just as dangerous to our resources in my opinion.
It’s called fishing (not catching) for a reason. I remember when one could go fishing and not expect success. Catching was a bonus. You used to have to work for it, study lakes, practice different presentations, practice boat control techniques, etc.
It used to take a lifetime of effort to collect all the equipment and knowledge to be consistently successful. Now you need a couple grand for a ffs unit, spot lock, time, and a jig and plastic to compete with the world’s best anglers.
Now days we have all this tech and the common mentality is that catching is required in order to consider it a good day.
Guides are pressured to produce limits and success when in my opinion neither should be expected. Guides should provide a fishing experience, if fishing is slow you show all the other ways to enjoy the water. Teach them how to enjoy themselves without a bucket full of fish. If you guide because you truly love the sport and being on the water, there should never be a bad day in the boat.

FFS is definitely not the only reason this mentality has become so common, but it’s a big factor. I think people wanting their moment of fame on social media plays a part as well.

Oh, I dont know grubson, with all the money in fancy tackle, electronics, mapping and other stuffs, its still hard to catch fish at times. I remember my buddies telling me I was cheating when I rolled up with side and down imaging along with on the fly detailed mapping. Well, what do you suppose they all use now? You got it. Regardless, we keep pretty good track of what we catch for fish each week in Canada for each boat. It does vary by years and quite widely and the catch rate is not determined by ability to find fish because they are there, but we just cannot get them to bite like other years.
One particular day my buddy and I were fishing and I mapped out this underwater point that no one knew about. As I was doing so I marked a bunch of fish so I said lets fish this. Mind you, we were marking fish everywhere we had been but it was tough fishing until this point. So the two of us managed to catch 98 walleyes and saugers in about 90 minutes of fishing. It was intense. We were so convinced that we figured out something special about that spot due to my electronics only to find out the other boats had similar results, but not quite as good, during that same time window. Something just turned on.

CaptainMusky wrote:

Oh, I dont know grubson, with all the money in fancy tackle, electronics, mapping and other stuffs, its still hard to catch fish at times.

As it should be.

Grubson, this is an invite to jump in my boat for a few hours and I’ll show you how we fish with FFS and you can decide if that added or took away from your experience of fishing that day. On many guide trips the FFS doesn’t even go in the water, but when it does most of my clients want to look at it. And for the rest of the trip “Are there any fish by my bait? Are you seeing any? Should we go find one/active ones?”

BTW, the group I guide with does offer sight-seeing tours as well for people that want that experience.

grubson wrote:

As it should be.

So in you line of thinking, you just boat out to your fishing spots by lining up the tower with the tree and the silo? It would be unethical to use a GPS!!

Fife wrote:

Grubson, this is an invite to jump in my boat for a few hours and I’ll show you how we fish with FFS and you can decide if that added or took away from your experience of fishing that day. On many guide trips the FFS doesn’t even go in the water, but when it does most of my clients want to look at it. And for the rest of the trip “Are there any fish by my bait? Are you seeing any? Should we go find one/active ones?”

BTW, the group I guide with does offer sight-seeing tours as well for people that want that experience.

Thanks for the offer, I’d gladly take you up on that some day if you have time. As I said I have used ffs a lot. It doesn’t necessarily take away from my day but it’s definitely a different day with it vs without it.
There is definitely an urgency to keep searching and chasing when using FFS. At times it gets tiring. Sometimes it’s nice to enjoy the other aspects and relax, fish or no fish. Some people can’t do that and I feel bad for them. There’s so much more to it than catching a bunch of fish.

slowpoke wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>grubson wrote:</div>
As it should be.

So in you line of thinking, you just boat out to your fishing spots by lining up the tower with the tree and the silo? It would be unethical to use a GPS!!

Again with the same old regurgitated arguement. Did you think of that all on your own? Apples to oranges.
Does your GPS tell you where the fish are? How big they are? Direction of travel? How they react to your presentation? I think not.

grubson wrote:

Again with the same old regurgitated arguement. Did you think of that all on your own? Apples to oranges.
Does your GPS tell you where the fish are? How big they are? Direction of travel? How they react to your presentation? I think not.

Let me explain this so even you can understand! Every new tool that is put out there to enhance the process of catching fish is a step up from the way it used to be done. FFS is no different. I’m guessing that you use DI/SI and GPS and Spotlock. All 4 are massive improvements in aiding success! But now you get to decide if we are slaughtering fish by using FFS?? And no I didn’t think of that all by my self…. thousands of other sportsman feel the same way as me!

You cannot discount the tower and the one large tree correlation with the point triangulation in the middle of a MN lakes close to Nevis My grandfather used that formula to produce large crappies and a lot of gills if we were having a fish fry for lunch we would go out and catch 2 limits of gills at that time 30 each in about 1.5 hrs. No electronics at all. just most definitely yrs of fishing and remembering the lakes in that area great times for us to visit for 3 weeks in the summer. Now i travel multiple states and use all of the mapping local info and all of my electronics to try to be somewhat successful. I am a firm believer that the satisfaction is in the journey probably more than the destination or what ends up in the live well. Typ freezer has plenty elk salmon / steelhead perch some bass and stripers to feed our family well. Enjoy the techniques and technology that works for you and don’t try to keep or be too critical of other people for doing likewise as long as it is legal to use in the state you are in

Take a look at the results in the PMTT if you want to see how difficult it is to catch a muskie in MN and WI without the use of FFS. Its literally raw data from some of the best muskie anglers in the Midwest, and data doesn’t lie.

The results are grim. That includes traditional strong hold waters in northern Wisconsin and Lake Minnetonka. An event in Madison, WI last year yielded only 12 fish with nearly 100 teams of 2 for multiple days.

Tons of teams blank. They literally catch nothing for days. If that doesn’t tell you how difficult muskie fishing is right now I don’t know what will.

So why is it more detrimental to muskies if I catch one using FFS vs Muskie guys I know that sight fish them in the shallows? They can see them better than my Livescope does. 99 times out of 100 they don’t catch it. It may follow and get them all excited but they still don’t catch it. Bottom line is YOU CAN’T MAKE THEM BITE even with FFS! If you want to fish them Old School then more power to you! I don’t fish Muskies but I shouldn’t be told how not to either!!! I’ve only caught one muskie in my life and it was by accident. It was a 36 in on a crappie rod on Fish Trap Lake in shallow water! It wasn’t that big of a deal for me although I did get a nice pic!

fishthumper wrote:

I live 20 minutes away from and am on Tonka and Waconia frequently, and am yet to see a floater. So I do not believe you see floating musky’s “often” and you living in StC makes me think you don’t actually come down here “often” either.

Prior to moving to St. Cloud I lived for 30 years in the metro. I was probably on one or both those lakes at least once a week. If you fish Tonka and Waconia frequently and have yet to see a floating musky, then either you don’t actually fish those lakes frequently, things have changed greatly with the musky populations, or you are a blind fishermen.

You said “I fish both Minnetonka and Waconia often enough and often see dead Muskies floating dead. Not many other causes of this other than Hooking mortality.” Talk about fishing memories, how long since you’ve been on either lake period? I have friends that live on or have slips on both lakes in addition to the dozen or so times I personally get out, and never hear from any of them about floaters. I’m sure it happens, but not often (kinda like HM…) like you implied from your experiences 10?-40 years ago.

slowpoke wrote:

So why is it more detrimental to muskies if I catch one using FFS vs Muskie guys I know that sight fish them in the shallows? They can see them better than my Livescope does. 99 times out of 100 they don’t catch it. It may follow and get them all excited but they still don’t catch it. Bottom line is YOU CAN’T MAKE THEM BITE even with FFS! If you want to fish them Old School then more power to you! I don’t fish Muskies but I shouldn’t be told how not to either!!! I’ve only caught one muskie in my life and it was by accident. It was a 36 in on a <strong class=”ido-tag-strong”>crappie rod on Fish Trap Lake in shallow water! It wasn’t that big of a deal for me although I did get a nice pic!

100 PERCENT accurate ! I used to muskie fish a lot across northern wis and canada I have FFS now . I see them swim into view while walleye / panfishing . I have on several occasions tried to see if they would bite. It was a no go , they would come and investigate and cruise of out of the picture. Maybe had a sucker down there it would be a different story. Guys like Bob Mehsikomer have caught 50 muskies 50 inches or better and not one was caught on FFS . Over 500 muskie over 30 lbs came out of Wabigoon Before ffs was even thought of . Got taxidermist buddy who boated 3 50 inch muskies in 1 night on Vermillion years ago with a guide and no FFS . I caught muskies without it . Most of the fish i caught were so shallow i would not find them with FFS in perspective mode . It was just a lot of fan casting and time on the water . Guess people think the worst of everyone when it comes to fishing ?

slowpoke wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>grubson wrote:</div>
Again with the same old regurgitated arguement. Did you think of that all on your own? Apples to oranges.
Does your GPS tell you where the fish are? How big they are? Direction of travel? How they react to your presentation? I think not.

Let me explain this so even you can understand! Every new tool that is put out there to enhance the process of catching fish is a step up from the way it used to be done. FFS is no different. I’m guessing that you use DI/SI and GPS and Spotlock. All 4 are massive improvements in aiding success! But now you get to decide if we are slaughtering fish by using FFS?? And no I didn’t think of that all by my self…. thousands of other sportsman feel the same way as me!

I get where the name comes from……

Yea, I get your point, because it’s the same one everyone uses everytime we debate this. Hence why I said it’s the same old regurgitated arguement. If you think I didn’t understand that, well, think more.
Yes all of those things you mentioned were technological advances. We all know that. Personally I don’t think any of those things offer the advantage that FfS does. Can any of those things show you real time movement of the fish? Can they show you how fish are reacting to your bait? Why do all the pros just use FFS and not watch SI while they cast away at fish? Because FFS offers a greater advantage and shows more information than all of those other things combined.
Round and round we go.

gim wrote:

Take a look at the results in the PMTT if you want to see how difficult it is to catch a muskie in MN and WI without the use of FFS. Its literally raw data from some of the best muskie anglers in the Midwest, and data doesn’t lie.

The results are grim. That includes traditional strong hold waters in northern Wisconsin and Lake Minnetonka. An event in Madison, WI last year yielded only 12 fish with nearly 100 teams of 2 for multiple days.

Tons of teams blank. They literally catch nothing for days. If that doesn’t tell you how difficult muskie fishing is right now I don’t know what will.

You read the data and conclude, grim.
I read the data and conclude, amazing.

A fish worth protecting is worth fishing, and if the weekend warriors of IDO determine that FFS isn’t their cup of tea, by no means should they feel obligated to drop $4k on it. But to say no one should target these fish because they don’t like the tech is ridiculous.

The DNR should implement a stamp for muskies that is $50, essentially lure cost, and bank roll that into stocking. Seems far more simple and effective than a $177K “study”

I think the one point is being missed with FFS in relation to muskies is the fact that people without much experience or the proper gear can target them a lot easier. They most likely dont know how to handle a fish of that caliber and could end up dropping a trophy class fish on hot boat carpet. I think that is where most musky guys are annoyed with it. Personally i dont really care a whole lot. Its a shrinking sport especially on the metro lakes.

gim wrote:

Take a look at the results in the PMTT if you want to see how difficult it is to catch a muskie in MN and WI without the use of FFS. Its literally raw data from some of the best muskie anglers in the Midwest, and data doesn’t lie.

The results are grim. That includes traditional strong hold waters in northern Wisconsin and Lake Minnetonka. An event in Madison, WI last year yielded only 12 fish with nearly 100 teams of 2 for multiple days.

Tons of teams blank. They literally catch nothing for days. If that doesn’t tell you how difficult muskie fishing is right now I don’t know what will.

Didn’t lots of teams blank with FFS too? It would be interesting if they allow FFS, to do a longer term study of the tourneys pre and post FFS.

So a blank PMTT leaderboard = data? There were blank PMTT leaderboards long before FFS ever existed.

BigWerm wrote:

Didn’t lots of teams blank with FFS too? It would be interesting if they allow FFS, to do a longer term study of the tourneys pre and post FFS.

PMTT banned FFS so no teams using it. The year they banned it a team way ahead of the FFS curve mopped up one tournament. They struggled in 2 or 3 tournaments before that using the same setup, so it wasn’t a magic bullet at that time either. Only in the right situation.

Youbetcha wrote:

I think the one point is being missed with FFS in relation to muskies is the fact that people without much experience or the proper gear can target them a lot easier. They most likely dont know how to handle a fish of that caliber and could end up dropping a trophy class fish on hot boat carpet. I think that is where most musky guys are annoyed with it. Personally i dont really care a whole lot. Its a shrinking sport especially on the metro lakes.

Target or catch? And no offense but the “these guys don’t know how to handle a fish” mantra really bugs me