First Border Water Regulations Open House tonight in Red Wing 6-8 pm

  • MN DNR Fisheries – Lake City
    Lake CIty, MN
    Posts: 158
    #1809587

    The first of 3 Open House style meetings to discuss regulation change proposals for the MN/WI Border Waters of the Mississippi River will be held tonight, Tuesday, Nov. 13, from 6-8 PM in Red Wing, MN at the Red Wing Environmental Learning Center, 442 Guernsey Lane, Red Wing.

    Note: The meeting is being held in their garage building not their office building.

    As I have mentioned before background information, results of our previous survey, and now an WEB SURVEY version of our current set of questions are available at our Lake City Area Fisheries Office website.

    Lake City Area Office

    We look forward to talking to folks at the meetings.

    Thanks,

    Nick Schlesser

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1809630

    Thanks Nick,

    Can’t make this one (lucky you guys).

    Thanks to both MN and WI for taking a look at the catfish limits. I would still like to see channels and flats separated as they have completely different life cycles unlike a walleye and sauger.

    After a couple things were pointed out, a one over 30 pretty much limits the number of flats that can be killed.

    But I’m tickled pink that it’s been recognized that 25 is excessive for this size of a fish.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1809635

    I just took the survey for the proposed rule changes.

    There’s a very good summary of the public survey listing why the DNR’s came up with what they are proposing.

    Very well done! bow

    riverruns
    Inactive
    Posts: 2218
    #1809766

    Great Survey and mine is in.

    Remember too read through the survey and see the results from the last survey. There’s some good info here.

    MN DNR Fisheries – Lake City
    Lake CIty, MN
    Posts: 158
    #1809847

    Second meeting is tonight Wednesday, Nov. 14, from 6-8 PM in Winona, MN at the Winona Middle School, 1570 Homer Road, Winona, Minnesota.

    Charlie “Turk” Gierke
    Hudson Wisconsin
    Posts: 1020
    #1810404

    Nick,

    I agree with Riverruns, its a good survey with good info.

    I’m attaching a link to my guide website to get this more exposure. A lot of the proposals make sense to me.

    Turk

    Tim Bossert
    Cochrane, WI
    Posts: 429
    #1817205

    Hey Nick, we spoke at the Winona event. Good information from you about the different things that affect the spawn. Based on what we discussed, and what the proposed rule changes are, I have a question I’m hoping you can shed some light on.

    When we spoke, you mentioned that having a smaller number of large fish in the system tends to bring on a healthier spawn. With this in mind, why are the proposed regs in stark contrast with that? A reduced bag limit, AND a maximum of one over 20″ goes against that philosophy, does it not? The proposed regs would actually increase the larger fish in the system.

    One area that I thought information could have been presented better was what the overall goal of the regulation changes are. We saw the results that we participated in, but I did not see what the goal of each reg change is. Is the walleye change to increase the size of trophy fish? Is it to allow more catch and release of bigger fish? It is definitely not to encourage harvest. A person wanting to catch fish to feed his/her family of five would have a hard time doing that with the proposed smaller bag limit, and smaller sized fish.

    Not everybody has a $75K boat, unlimited time on the water, and simply fishes for the photo likes on social media. Some people like to eat what they catch, and might only get out a couple times per month.

    I see both sides.

    Anyway, just curious how the regs compare to what you had said about the spawn.

    Thanks for all you do. Looking forward to more studies, and reports.

    Dusty Gesinger
    Minnetrista, Minnesota
    Posts: 2417
    #1817212

    I agree with Tim on pretty much everything.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8389
    #1817213

    Hey Nick, we spoke at the Winona event. Good information from you about the different things that affect the spawn. Based on what we discussed, and what the proposed rule changes are, I have a question I’m hoping you can shed some light on.

    When we spoke, you mentioned that having a smaller number of large fish in the system tends to bring on a healthier spawn. With this in mind, why are the proposed regs in stark contrast with that? A reduced bag limit, AND a maximum of one over 20″ goes against that philosophy, does it not? The proposed regs would actually increase the larger fish in the system.

    One area that I thought information could have been presented better was what the overall goal of the regulation changes are. We saw the results that we participated in, but I did not see what the goal of each reg change is. Is the <strong class=”ido-tag-strong”>walleye change to increase the size of trophy fish? Is it to allow more catch and release of bigger fish? It is definitely not to encourage harvest. A person wanting to catch fish to feed his/her family of five would have a hard time doing that with the proposed smaller bag limit, and smaller sized fish.

    Not everybody has a $75K boat, unlimited time on the water, and simply fishes for the photo likes on social media. Some people like to eat what they catch, and might only get out a couple times per month.

    I see both sides.

    Anyway, just curious how the regs compare to what you had said about the spawn.

    Thanks for all you do. Looking forward to more studies, and reports.

    I’m going to respectfully disagree with the arguments for fish limits based on “feeding people” (and not just yours, but the ever popular one that exists). The whole “feeding my family” argument is just not valid in my opinion. For starters, if you look at the holistic goals of the MNDNR and WIDNR there is nothing that states their objective is to “provide a food source to families.” I enjoy eating fresh fish like most do. I harvest and consume in extreme moderation (maybe a meal every 6-8 weeks despite fishing 3 days a week Spring-Fall). I would rather be proactive and see the resources managed in a proactive way than be concerned about someone wanting to feed their family of 5.

    If you do have a family of 5, aren’t your children or spouse capable of coming along to increase your bag limit? A 2 angler limit (or 1 angler and a kid’s) should more than feed a family of 5. Panfish are plentiful and relatively easy to catch as a meal option. There’s so many 25-30″ pike in the system that make ideal eaters also and rival the taste of any walleye or sauger.

    If our resources are going to be managed based on what individual people “want for their families”, a disaster will ensue. What if another family says they want to be able to shoot 10 deer to fill their freezer each Fall? I love pheasant breasts wrapped in bacon on the grill and could eat 3-4 in a sitting easily. Does that mean 1 hunter from a family of 5 should get to harvest a dozen + birds daily to feed their family?

    Tim Bossert
    Cochrane, WI
    Posts: 429
    #1817216

    With respect bucky, I am not the family of five in question. It is a hypothetical, but a real option worth mentioning. I didn’t mention the need to feed the family for the entire year. I do think it is going to be harder for those that do fish alone, but want to give their family a meal of fish from time to time with the proposed regs. For me I see both sides of the coin, and for the most part it will not bother me either way. I fall in either the middle, or overlap both scenarios depending how you look at it.

    I do believe in asking questions. My initial point about the spawn data vs the (presumed) goal of more/larger fish is at odds of one another in how I interpreted Nick’s discussion. Again, what is the goal of these reg changes?

    I attended the spring meeting/survey, and attended the fall open house format with the results, and answered the questionnaire.

    I still have questions, and am asking.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1817219

    The way I take it is the regs are to reflect what the public wants (as long as the fishery can support it).

    But I’m not speaking for the DNR…I’ll let Nick do that. @LCDNRFisheries

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8389
    #1817271

    With respect bucky, I am not the family of five in question. It is a hypothetical, but a real option worth mentioning. I didn’t mention the need to feed the family for the entire year. I do think it is going to be harder for those that do fish alone, but want to give their family a meal of fish from time to time with the proposed regs. For me I see both sides of the coin, and for the most part it will not bother me either way. I fall in either the middle, or overlap both scenarios depending how you look at it.

    I do believe in asking questions. My initial point about the spawn data vs the (presumed) goal of more/larger fish is at odds of one another in how I interpreted Nick’s discussion. Again, what is the goal of these reg changes?

    I attended the spring meeting/survey, and attended the fall open house format with the results, and answered the questionnaire.

    I still have questions, and am asking.

    My mistake, and my apologies.

    I do still think the age old “feed a family” argument is not really worthy of much consideration.

    I do agree with asking questions and respect that you took the time to go in-person and discuss your thoughts. I am in agreement that having successful spawns is the key to developing and maintaining a solid fishery. These changes seem to be something that will protect the resource (or maybe even strengthen populations). I too am curious to hear the answers to your questions.

    Dusty Gesinger
    Minnetrista, Minnesota
    Posts: 2417
    #1817283

    Again. It’s what some of the public wants.

    FishBlood&RiverMud
    Prescott
    Posts: 6687
    #1817326

    All I could think tonight while catching eyes pitching plastics… Alone on the river… Not 25 miles from a metropolitan 5 million people…

    what are these people thinking is wrong with the current status of the river? rotflol

    Need more eyes?

    One of them nights the bite was so good. these reg changes just seem silly.

    I wonder how many that filled out the surveys can actually catch a walleye. If your on fish and you can’t catch them… Well

    Adding more eyes doesn’t make a fishermen better, it simply makes their failure to catch a fish greater.

    Pressure ?

    jon amundson
    Posts: 143
    #1817361

    I agree, Completely FBRM. I see absolutely no need for a regulation change for walleye/sauger. I also am not happy with reducing the panfish limit. In wi we can use bluegills and if 2 guys go out we can easily use a current limit of panfish. If they reduce the limit to 10 that is only 20 baitfish between 2 guys with 3 lines each hardly worth effort. Couple spots and your out of bait. Sad when the DNR has to throw test results out of the equation and change regs not on science but by popularity of few.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1817372

    That’s the problem Jon.
    From the people that went on record, it’s not popular by a few. It’s the majority.

    jon amundson
    Posts: 143
    #1817386

    If you think that survey reached even 1/3 of people fishing minnesota border waters i would think your dreaming. Yes I also responded to survey. Sad to see science thrown out and a small survey pool used to come up with regulation changes that have no need.

    Tim Bossert
    Cochrane, WI
    Posts: 429
    #1817391

    As someone that sits on a village board, I can assure you surveys are not generally returned in great numbers. That being said, they were at least happy they received back as many as they did. As a first time for this type of public input, I believe they were satisfied. Hopefully they expand on it and make it an annual, or semi-annual event. I suggested an app that they can get direct feedback, and distribute surveys with.

    Jon, I agree. I’m sure the science side carries as much weight as the survey side. Again, understanding their goal will answer many questions we have, and help spawn new ones. See what I did there? smirk

    I also agree with FBRM. We have a very healthy fishery that seems to be working. Biggest fluctuations seem to be the spawn, and loss of habitat due to sedimentation. Again, what is the goal of the regulation changes?

    Looking forward to Nick’s weigh-in on a couple of these questions.

    Great job by all in keeping our discussions going. I didn’t mean to steer this thread, so if we need to start a new discussion thread I’m all for it.

    jon amundson
    Posts: 143
    #1817392

    We got what till 2033-2034 until nuclear plant shutdown. Also lake pepin silting in seems like a bigger priority than changing regs that have no negative effect on current fish. Pool 4 is not like any other border water. With current regulation this section of river has and would continue to be of one of the best if not best fisheries within 2-3 hrs. drive Of it. Pool 4 is the standard most fisheries could only dream to have. If the regs have built and maintained this wonderful body of water. Why change until science can prove it is in danger of a decline. As for panfish (ever clean fish) a small snake northern eats more than any freezer filler fisheman. Sad to think northern less than 30″ could eat more than even the best freezer filler following the current regulations. On a river of this size a 25 panfish limit is hurting absolutely nothing .

    MN DNR Fisheries – Lake City
    Lake CIty, MN
    Posts: 158
    #1817670

    Hey Tim,

    I appreciate your interest in the regulations review and revision process. You are correct that when we talked about Walleye spawning and recruitment I pointed out that on Lake Pepin/Pool 4 we tend to see our biggest year classes of walleye produced during periods with relatively low stocks of larger fish. Specifically, work done in the early 2000s by Brian Ickes as part of his masters thesis looked at Walleye data collected on Lake Pepin/Pool 4 from 1965 to 1998.

    What he found was that his statistical model explained 27% of the variability in walleye recruitment. If he removed a single outlier data point (1987 in this case) his base model explained 42% of the variability. So far these models used only Walleye older than Age-4 as spawners and used numbers of Age-2 fish captured 2 years later as a measure of recruitment. We all know however that rivers are complex systems so he attempted to look at other variables that might affect recruitment. Two of them were ultimately added to his model 1) the cumulative degree days in the previous August which explained another 16% of the variability (high temps in Aug likely reduce recruitment by adding stress during egg development) and 2) the minimum discharge in cubic feet per second (higher is better) during the spawning period which explained 10% of variability.

    One of my predecessors updated this model to approximately 2010 and got the same basic results, and I am currently in the process of updating it again.

    Interestingly, early indications are that the 2018 year class could be very good, with record catch rates of YOY walleye from both our trawl and fall electrofishing surveys. The average Lake City temperature in August (2017) was 66.81F (the second lowest in the last two decades), and the 2017 catch rate of walleye over age-4 was on the low end of what we have seen in the past decade.

    I apologize for the lengthy response, but wanted to lay that out first. Now as to how that relates to our regulation proposals.

    1) We have incredible amounts of data for Pool 4, but in general relatively poor (Walleye and Sauger) data for the remaining border water pools. Sampling difficulties and staff and time limitations mean that the lower pools receive far less Walleye/Sauger specific monitoring. Tailwater surveys that are done in the lower pools (primarily by the WI DNR) have documented YOY numbers below the average for 9 of the last 10 years for Sauger.

    Ultimately we have to propose regulations for the entire Mississippi River border waters and though walleye and sauger regulations on Pool 4 were relatively low on our list of priorities (due to in depth monitoring) there were concerns about the lower pools and certainly a large amount of public concern, particularly about what was perceived to be excessive harvest of large fish.

    One of the initial comments we received a lot was a recommendation to adopt the “Iowa Slot” (15” min with a protected slot 20”-27”, only 1 over 27”). I have some concerns about applying that regulation to Pool 4 both because of potential suppression of recruitment by high numbers of larger fish (described above), and the potential for increased summer mortality during warm water events like we experienced in 2012 (~2 weeks at 90+F surface temps). Larger fish in particular are more susceptible to mortality from these extended periods of warm water. The 1 over 20” regulation proposed for Walleye and Sauger allows some harvest throughout the population of mature fish, should act to spread out the harvest of those larger fish among more anglers during a hot “big fish” bite, and allows for harvest of a fish that would otherwise not survive release (deep hooked etc), a common criticism we hear about protected slots where all fish in a size range must be released.

    2) Your second question involved the purpose of the proposed regulations. Each proposed change to a regulation has various purposes. In this case there is a large overarching goal behind our regulation review process. We wanted to evaluate regulations that were in most cases unchanged and unevaluated for 50 years to see if they fit with current management philosophies, reduce discrepancies between (MN and WI) and within (inland vs border waters) states, and to examine whether regulations were consistent with what the public was looking for from their shared resource. Through our two sets of meetings and electronic surveys (May and October) we received 850 and 1,125 responses respectively (~82,325 individual questions answered) with many additional written comments.

    Additionally we wanted to look at some proactive changes that could potentially increase the resilience of our fisheries to changes that are occurring with pressure (technology and effort), climate (altered flood timing and increased heat stress), invasive species (bighead and silver carp, invertebrates, and diseases), and habitat (the pools are an aging reservoir system and loss of habitat means they are constantly getting smaller).

    Most folks are familiar with how difficult it can be to “fix” a fishery that has failed. Often if regulations are used there must be extreme reductions to effectively recover populations. These are difficult to get the public to accept and generally even when successful take a significant amount of time to achieve their goals.

    Our hope is to prevent the border water fisheries from developing these problems. Some of the regulations are designed to spread harvest out among individuals or over time (white bass), while others are designed to prevent over harvest by reducing bag limits to levels that creel surveys indicate are typically taken (catfish).

    The Walleye and Sauger regulation proposals were designed to proactively buffer the system from changes mentioned above while allowing us to maintain opportunities like a continuous open season for anglers. The proposed regulations should distribute the harvest from a hot bite over time (number of days) and anglers, particularly the harvest of larger fish. The reduction in bag also seeks to address concerns about populations in lower pools without restricting anglers to bag limits below what they indicated they would accept in our surveys.

    As usual I am happy to discuss any of these items further with folks if they are interested. My contact info should be listed below.

    Tim Bossert
    Cochrane, WI
    Posts: 429
    #1817679

    Thanks a bunch Nick. Great information as usual. I am happy to have shared our discussion to those that read on here.

    I look forward to more of your reports, and studies on this wonderful ecosystem we have the privilege to use everyday.

    MN DNR Fisheries – Lake City
    Lake CIty, MN
    Posts: 158
    #1817699

    That’s a good question. As I have pointed out many times at some of our UMRCC (Upper Mississippi River Conservation Committee) meetings where management folks from the 5 upper Mississippi River states get together, we are attempting to manage a longitudinal resource laterally. Ideally individual pools or groups of pools could be managed as blocks with all bordering states agreeing on a specific set of regulations for each.

    1) The reality is that while not impossible interstate cooperation to that level would be difficult. If not at the staff level certainly at the legislative (state capital) level where separate rule or legislative language would likely have to be produced for each pool or group of pools. While often not directly affecting management of fish overlaying federal agency (Corps of Engineers, National Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, Cost Guard) interests also influence activities on the river and partnerships with these groups, while very beneficial, can use a lot of staff time for environmental review, meetings, planning etc.

    2) Additionally, there is often push back from the public who accuse state agencies of making rules and regulations too complicated and specific. For every person who wants highly tailored regulations there seems to be at least one who wants everything to be the same (particularly on bodies of water that are connected and navigable by boat by locking through).

    3) In order to develop highly tailored regulations more fine scale monitoring of each pool would likely be necessary. In Minnesota we have one fisheries management office that covers the Mississippi River from Pool 3 to Pool 9. We have 1 staff member who covers Pools 3, 5, 5A, 6, 7, 8, and upper 9, 1 Large Lake Specialist (me) who covers Lake Pepin/Pool 4 (annual monitoring program), a supervisor, and staff of 2 additional management folks that fill out our crews for field work in addition to their inland duties. We also house a federally funded long term monitoring program that focuses on Pool 4 (Wisconsin has a similar team focused on Pool 8) though they are not focused on management, and 2 research scientists who occasionally work on river related projects. Other river states often have similarly low staffing levels relative to the number of acres of river they manage.

    As you pointed out we did include a split at Lock and Dam 4 for Walleye and Sauger alone in one of our proposals. This was do to the extensive information we have showing that Pool 4 did not merit the concern for the sauger population expressed in lower pools.

    Personally, I would love to work towards longitudinal management of the river which would likely include a unique section for Pool 4 or Pools 3 and 4 due to their unique features (Pepin) and highly interconnected nature, but don’t feel we should risk the good in pursuit of the great at this time.

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