GPS Speed Measurements.

  • Chitwood46
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 145
    #1232576

    I am easily confused but always curious. I was reading another post about the accuracy of GPS versus other means of measuring boat speed? I beleive the GPS system is capable of measuring speed accurately, whether you are on land, water, or in the air. The GPS unit determines your location including altitude, then in a preset time frame it takes another bearing and compares it to the timne that has elapsed. A simple calculation by the unit displays your speed through the given distance. Does not matter if the wind is blowing in a given direction or if the boat is moving upstream or down, you have moved at whatever rate. River current can create an increase in SOG but the GPS will display the correct SOG regardless. The same results occur in an airplane flying into or with the wind. IAS (indicated air speed) on the dial (from a pitot tube device) will be different than GPS measured SOG. The GPS is currently the most accurate measure of speed of an object through space over time. That’s my opinion are there any others?

    derek_johnston
    On the water- Minnesota
    Posts: 5022
    #295816

    That about sums it up.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #295876

    You have it right. 45 MPH is 45 MPH. Downhill, uphill, into the wind or off a cliff.

    I believe the point that was being made in the post you are referring to is that actual SOG will be affected by current speed and direction. Slowing the boat going upstream, assisting it going with the current.

    Another way to look at it is if your car was doing 65 mph on a moving hwy going 20 mph in the same direction. SOG would be 85 MPH. Turn the car around and drive in the opposite direction the road is moving and you’re still going 65 mph but your SOG would be 45 MPH.

    GPS units are amazingly accurate. In my opinion, when communicating boat speeds, etc., nothing else is even worth mentioning short of a radar gun reading. If someone tells me they’re running X MPH by their speedo to me this deserves nothing more than a polite nod of the head and a knowing smile..

    flatoutally
    MN
    Posts: 111
    #295878

    Quote:


    If someone tells me they’re running X MPH by their speedo to me this deserves nothing more than a polite nod of the head and a knowing smile..


    And how, Mr. Holst. You guys have it nailed. It’s all a matter of relativity.

    GPS gives speed relative to the ground.

    A GOOD speedometer gives speed relative to the waters surface, including the effect of it’s motion.

    All other speedometers are usually installed by boat manufacturers or dealer/riggers with the intention of boosting the customers image of his dx/dt.

    grampajimh
    Delmar, IA
    Posts: 255
    #295736

    I agree that GPS gives a much more accurate view of speed than the paddle wheel speed indicator on a locator. My question is when trolling with and against the current wouldn’t the paddle wheel give you a better indication of what speed to go? To put it another way do you guys using a GPS (I just got my first one last Fall) troll at different speeds going against than with current? Most of my trolling in the past has been on lakes so I haven’t had to deal with the current.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #295657

    Paddle wheels are so inaccurate, particularly in current, I stopped putting them on my boats years ago. They just don’t work worth a darn in my opinion. GPS is really the only way to go and be consistent with your speed.

    grampajimh
    Delmar, IA
    Posts: 255
    #295892

    Quote:


    Paddle wheels are so inaccurate, particularly in current, I stopped putting them on my boats years ago. They just don’t work worth a darn in my opinion. GPS is really the only way to go and be consistent with your speed.


    Thanks…Now all I have to do is figure out what speed to be consistant with for the type of fishing I am doing.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #295893

    And THAT is always changing. Even throughout the course of a day. See ya’ in June Jim… count on trolling faster than you ever imagined reasonable… lol

    grampajimh
    Delmar, IA
    Posts: 255
    #295898

    Quote:


    And THAT is always changing. Even throughout the course of a day. See ya’ in June Jim… count on trolling faster than you ever imagined reasonable… lol


    I am looking forward too June. Not too FAST now my partner (Gil) just had a Heart Attach about 3 weeks ago. He had a little damage, but is doing therapy and says he will be ready for a full day fishing by then.

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    #295904

    Quote:


    I am looking forward too June. Not too FAST now my partner (Gil) just had a Heart Attach about 3 weeks ago. He had a little damage, but is doing therapy and says he will be ready for a full day fishing by then.



    A fishing partner named Gil. How perfect! Hope he’s doing well!
    Steve

    grampajimh
    Delmar, IA
    Posts: 255
    #295915

    Quote:


    A fishing partner named Gil. How perfect! Hope he’s doing well!
    Steve


    I never thought about that “Gil” He is doing very good and taking Therapy to make sure he is in top shape for our trip in June. I told him we would take some trips before that because Fishing is the ultimate therapy.

    derek_johnston
    On the water- Minnesota
    Posts: 5022
    #295933

    Nothing like a 12 pound walleye for a heart attack therapy.

    lenny_jamison
    Bay City , WI
    Posts: 4001
    #295946

    Quote:


    You have it right. 45 MPH is 45 MPH. Downhill, uphill, into the wind or off a cliff.


    You are right but I believe you are also wrong on this one James. A GPS measures everything in a straight line. I do not believe they are capable of measuring speed up or down in altitude. I belive if you were to drop a GPS off a cliff it would read 0 MPH. It did not cover any horizontal distance. To put it another way, if you were to drive up or down a steep hill you may cover a mile of ground but only 1/2 mile of horizontal ground. In this case the GPS reading would be 1/2 of your actual ground speed. I am not positive about this but I am pretty sure.

    Of course all of this is meaningless on the water since it is flat.

    Gator Hunter

    Gianni
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts: 2063
    #295596

    To clarify a couple of points:

    Quote:


    The GPS unit determines your location including altitude, then in a preset time frame it takes another bearing and compares it to the timne that has elapsed. A simple calculation by the unit displays your speed through the given distance.


    Sort of. There is a position component to the velocity calculation that is performed, but I’ll get to that in a minute. GPS channels, each assigned to a particular satellite, take two measurements called pseudorange and deltarange (also called delta-pseudorange). You can thing of pseudorange as a measure of position + time, while deltarange is a measure of (position + time) rate over the deltarange summation interval. A GPS cannot directly measure true range, because it cannot account for it’s own internal clock error. This is why to determine true 3D position, a GPS needs 4 measurements (3 degrees of position freedom, plus user clock).

    Now, even though pseudorange data contains an unknown quantity (and tends to be very noisy as it is generated from the code-chipping on the signal), deltarange is very accurrately measured by using the GPS carrier, which can give relative accuracy from second to second in the millimeter range. Because the common error (clock rate) in deltarange applies to all measurements, satellite geometry allows excision of this quantity with relatively high accuracy as well (i.e. an SV straight East has v+c, one in the west has -v+c). The relatively low noise on the deltarange measurements allows the navigation filter to really clamp down and respond rapidly to changes in velocity, so you always get a good measure.

    The position component that I referred to earlier can affect velocity measurement in that it is used to determine relative geometry of the user to the satellites. The impact of ‘normal’ position errors on velocity is minimal, as it is de-weighted by the cosine of the angle from the errant position to a satellite which is 11,000,000 meters away.

    Now:

    Quote:


    A GPS measures everything in a straight line. I do not believe they are capable of measuring speed up or down in altitude. I belive if you were to drop a GPS off a cliff it would read 0 MPH.


    It is true that 90% of the GPS radios that we (on this site) have are set up to measure Speed Over Ground (SOG). This is because almost all of us are using handhelds or marine units, which are expected to be operated in relatively low dynamic environments with little or no Z component in velocity. The unit is constantly computing the Z velocity, but does not output it because the odds of you “going ballistic” in your bassboat (okay, bad example… in your walleye boat??) are pretty minimal. Airborne units output 3-axis velocity data, because to a pilot, this is critical information. Even though GPS is not approved as a primary navigation aid in aerial transport, these units have to go through a rigorous approval process which translates to a lot of cash for the end unit.

    All this is to say: They output SOG because when you’re glued by gravity to the lake surface, that’s what you really need to know. This also generates a better solution, as it is not impacted by the poor vertical determination inherent to the GPS system. Horizontally, you’re overdetermined because you’re tracking satellites in every direction. Vertically, all of the signals are coming from above (unless you’ve a satellite buried in the bottom of your boat)!

    Whew!! Beer me.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #295954

    Gianni! With all due respect….That was GREAT!

    Quote:


    To clarify a couple of points:


    This would be one of those times that you would take the quote by James just a little differantly then intended.

    Quote:


    to me this deserves nothing more than a polite nod of the head and a (un) knowing smile..


    Although Jim touched on this, no matter how accurate your GPS is your spinner or crank bait is “working” (notice I didn’t say moving ) faster going into the currant than down stream…which to us fisherpeople means more – than how fast is my boat going. Is that what you said back there about the hiway James?

    Gianni, what ever you’ve been beered, I’ll have one!

    Chitwood46
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 145
    #296018

    Gianni, I am impressed, although I left it out, my point was that, regardless of current direction and speed you are going to get a very accurate SOG with a GPS unit. It is not going to give you a bad reading because of current speed. Again, I am impressed with your disertation but I am not smart enough to know why?

    Gianni
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts: 2063
    #295968

    If your concern is the action of the lure, then I agree that current is going to make a difference in how the lure runs, blades spin, etc. I don’t think this is as important, however, as SOG – even in pretty strong current.

    The thing to remember is that you are triggering the fish to bite with the lure speed, especially when we’re talking about trolling at 3mph or better! The speed with respect to the current would be important if the fish were floating downstream a the rate of the current, but fish do not do this; they hide out behind obstructions and in slackwater pockets, or hug the bottom where they are immune to the effects of current. These fish are going to care about SOG, and not speed with respect to an arbitrary reference frame (current flow).

    I think that’s right anyway… but maybe that’s why I don’t catch any fish.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #296057

    Quote:


    but maybe that’s why I don’t catch any fish.



    That’s what I was going to say!

    I think you’re right….and wrong.

    Let’s use a spinner to keep it simple for me.

    If you are traveling down stream with no motor (simple for me) and the current is 3 mph, your spinner isn’t spinning…it’s just drifting along. But your GPS says 3 mph.

    On the other hand, to your point, if your spinner goes by at 10 mph SOG, the window is too small for the fish to see it, much less be triggered into a strike.

    My wife tells me all the time that I think backwards…am I doing it again?

    Gianni
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts: 2063
    #296169

    No, you’re right on with your example, but I think that the fish are typically holding in current at 0MPH – that’s SOG. With respect to the current they’re moving upstream at 3MPH.

    Now I am confused… a 12 pack would really help us sort this out.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #296111

    I used the “off a cliff” example to eliminate concern over type of terrain the unit was traveling over when the unit was being used to calculate speed. I do believe the initial post suggested that topography of the bottom of the lake below the boat might have an impact on accuracy and perhaps I was over zealous in trying to get past that point in the discussion. Besides, if your “off a cliff” you’re really “up a creek” and an inaccurate speed reading might be the last of your worries… lol

    Quote:


    Quote:


    You have it right. 45 MPH is 45 MPH. Downhill, uphill, into the wind or off a cliff.


    You are right but I believe you are also wrong on this one James. A GPS measures everything in a straight line. I do not believe they are capable of measuring speed up or down in altitude. I belive if you were to drop a GPS off a cliff it would read 0 MPH. It did not cover any horizontal distance. To put it another way, if you were to drive up or down a steep hill you may cover a mile of ground but only 1/2 mile of horizontal ground. In this case the GPS reading would be 1/2 of your actual ground speed. I am not positive about this but I am pretty sure.

    Of course all of this is meaningless on the water since it is flat.

    Gator Hunter


    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #296181

    I just reread the posts…my comments are moot…except the last one….

    Gator, this is where you break out the tapper…

    Dave Koonce
    Moderator
    Prairie du Chien Wi.
    Posts: 6946
    #296190

    and here i thought i wanted a GPS unit…

    not no more

    Last thing i want to do is go out on the Mississippi and be looking at my GPS only to find out that i’m going 0 mph over a cliff (on the Mississippi)

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #296027

    Dave…it won’t hurt…you’re only going 0 mph (SOG)

    grampajimh
    Delmar, IA
    Posts: 255
    #296197

    Quote:


    Last thing i want to do is go out on the Mississippi and be looking at my GPS only to find out that i’m going 0 mph over a cliff (on the Mississippi)


    I want one of dem der aviation GPS case I go over dat der dam at high water

    pfluggy
    ROSEMOUNT, MN
    Posts: 262
    #296572

    I’M JUST AN OLD WALLEYE FISHERMAN, THAT WHEN I GET A FISH I LOOK AT MY FLASHER /GRAPH TO SEE HOW DEEP I WAS AND MY GPS TO SEE HOW FAST I WAS GOING.SO WHEN I GET BACK TO FISHIN I CAN TRY TO DO THE SAME THING OVER AGAIN. SPEED AND DEPTH VERY IMPORTANT .5 MPH IS 5 MPH ,2 IS 2 ECT., THATS ALL I NEED TO KNOW ,ISNT IT ?
    OK, ONE MORE THIG, YOU SEEN MY COFFEE CUP UP THERE

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.