Need your input on new charging system..ALLCHARGE!

Hi Everyone,
I’ve been pretty busy lately and havent gotten a chance to hit the water in a few weeks. Me and My partner Jim have a boatcharging system called stayncharge that we invented 6 years ago. The original system allows you to charge your 12-36V boat wired in Parallel while you tow it to and from the lake. Our Gorilla system allows you to charge your 24-36V wired in series boats the same way (we alternate the charge 12 Volts, 10-30 amps at a time to each battery in 5 minute intervals)Well we have been doing some research a development the last 2 yrs and Our soon to be introduced system is called the “AllCharge”.
What do all of you think about a charging system that will replace your heavy, heat producing, onboard AC chargers and allow you 3 different ways to charge your boats batteries.
The “AllCharge” is for 24-36V sytems wired in “series” It will not only charge up to 3 batteries for your trolling motor but also will charge one 12V cranking battery also. It will do this while you tow it to and from the lake…..also ON THE WATER when you run your outboard from location to location and you can hook up a 10-30amp clamp type AC Charger AT HOME or at the DOCK and it will charge all your boats batteries including the cranking battery.
My questions to all of you are…….
1. would you pay $200 retail for this type of system? (it is actually pretty simple to install)
2. would you promote this type of charger to your friends if it was proved to you it works as I say it does?
3.would you be willing to install this yourself or would you seek a pro to install it at a dealer?
4. would you even want a system like this installed in your boat or do you enjoy taking your batteries out of the boat to charge them?

Any feedback would be helpful. I will be speaking to the owner of this web forum this week to discuss some promotional items and offers I would like to offer this site and to all its members and prostaff.
We are for real, we are just a small company and looking to keep this idea family owned (the big guys, cant say who, but it might be a trolling motor company here in MN…. , tried to buy us out but we wont sell)
We need your help and your opinions count! Hit me with what ever feedback or questions you might have. We need your input guys. Thanks for your time!

I case anyone was in the area and interested, we will be doing some last minute testing of the “on the water” charging abilities of the “AllCharge” today on Lake Wapogassette after noon today. This is the last set of tests before it goes into mass production next week. Look for the white and blue smokercraft. Wave and say hi if your out there. We would love to show it to ya! Now let me see if I can slow Jimmy down long enough to wet a line or 2.
Later all

Wow! I cant believe that nobody is interested in leaving any feedback. Nobody here has had problems with an undercharged or dead battery on their boat. This problem has stopped us dead 3 or 4 times from fishing in the past that is how this charging system came to be.
We will be showing this system to Skeeter Boats in September. We are testing head to head with “Stealth” and “Dual Pro” chargers under the supervision of Skeeters head engineer. We have done run our own tests and are prepared to blow both of those chargers right out of the water. The testing went fabulous on Wapo the other day. Our “AllCharge” did what it was designed to do and it does it without generating heat and weight.
This will be my last post on the subject if there are no responses. I am surprised that no one is at least curious about a Product that will insure that you will have more productive time on the water doing what is important…..FISHING!

Later
Bob

Sounds like you have a winner here, one reason you might not be getting any feedback is allot of guys like to wait for a year when a new product comes out to see how it works for everyone else and to make sure there are no bugs with the product, they read message boards like this one and products reviews before they spend there hard earned cash.
This system sounds like it would be great for tournament fishermen. For me I would not spend $200 here’s why, my bow mount trolling motor is a 12 volt, I have a separate battery for the trolling motor and of course one for starting my main motor. I use a charger/maintainer it puts out 1.5 amps and is fully automatic, I have two of these one for each battery. This unit works well for me because I do not fish every day so there is plenty of time between trips for the batteries to charge up. This is also a good unit for when you store your rig in the winter as it will maintain and prolong the life of your batteries. I use OPTIMA Batteries so I do not have to pull them out of the boat in the winter, I plug them in when I get home and forget about it and I am good to go the time out. If you need your batteries charged up over night or if you fish almost every day my unit would not be the way to go.

Your stuff sounds good but your post comes off way too long with too many questions with too much hype. I like this site because we don’t get barraged by this type of thing too much. I’m open to hearing more I guess. You might want to get with H2O about even posting this.

I know a few anglers that were using the stayncharge system. Their feedback on performance was positive at the time. I talked to Jim, in detail about the product. At That time the stayncharge was not usable on a three battery system.Another drawback is storage, granted my boat does not sit idle for long periods but if we hit a month long cold snap my onboard chargers are hard to beat. I do like the options you have available except using a portable charger. Instead of a charger unit I have to carry around, if you made a unit that I could mount on my boat you would have me sold. also, my onboard chargers have never failed!

Ive never used one but have heard in the past and read on other sites that it can damage your electrical in your tow vehicle, is that true?

I guess I have never been in a position where I could not just plug in my charger…..

Anyway, along the idea of this system. I always thought it would be cool to be able to tap into the boat’s gas tank and run a line back to the truck. That way I could basically drive anywhere within 12-15 hours (or more)without stopping for gas or worry about running out.

Million Dollar Idea???

I think if you look back in the Archives the StayNcharge has been discussed in detail on this site. I think we deterimined that it did not provide a 100% charge but did provide an adequate charge.

I have heard negatives about this product, but have also heard positives. My mechanic did not recommend it so I have an unused one sitting in my garage that I won in a tournament one time. I would sell it for cheap if someone is interested in giving it a try.

Well finally some input. Just so ya know, I’m not bombarding anyone with anything, I was lloking for some input on a product that has some great benifits to some fishermen and boaters. Not selling anything to ya! I have written to the owner of this web site but have heard nothing back. We have over 2000 StayNCharge Originals and Gorillas sold with only one return due to a bad LED. This has been tested for 5 years and does not do any harm to your vehicles electrical system. this system is seperate and it is a concept that is used by the RV industry and is even factory installed on some hitch woting applications. We went a step further and made our system seperate from the wire harness and is well protected. This concept and Idea is based on what allready works. if your trucks altornator is so innefficient at charging batteries then why is it working on your vehicle? This is nothing more than an extention cord in a sense. Our new system is based on what the boating manufactures wanted and we delivered. I’m sorry to hear that some of you are getting a negative idea about this system cuz if you talk to someone that has been using the original or the Gorilla you will not hear negative things come from them. It works very well and we have proven this time and time again. We are just a couple of fishing guys with an idea that we have taken to the public. I appreciate the feedback, kinda wish some of you would open your mind a bit and look at the positive benifits instead of always looking for the negative.

Must be something special to have some very well known companies try to buy us out. And this is after having there engineers look at this.

Bob, one thing you could address for us, and I am no expert, but is it safe to charge trolling batteries as fast as the altornator on your tow vehicle will charge them. Does this type of charging decrease the life expectancy of a battery?

I have never had dead batteries. As one guy mentioned, I just plug mine in when I get home. For $200 I have a 3-bank charging system on my boat; I simply plug an extension cord to the 3-bank and all 3 batteries are charged. Not trying to suggest alternatives to your product, but for the money conservative boater out there which there are many, would a power inverter work for those guys who already have an installed charger on their boat? I have a simple power inverter on my truck wired to the truck battery. The power inverter has a fuse on it. You can pick those up for $50 ($100 will get you one that you could run a tablesaw and cord drill on). I am no expert on this and wouldn’t suggest doing this without proper research on the amps pulled from the charger, etc., but for those with a charger already installed, $70 for a power inverter and an extension cord may do the trick.

Mike your idea is a great one and will work very well. I do not want you all to think the stayncharge products are going to replace and be better then what you already have. I came up with stayncharge to help you stay on the water and fish more without having to find that AC outlet if you run out of power and you don’t have the long delays you need to charge with the regular chargers. So please do not think we are trying to change the world. The stayncharge products are made to work with the systems you already have if you need them. If what you have works for you then by all means stick to it and if in the future you find you might want to look at our systems please give us a chance to show them to you. I am sorry for talking so much but i want to make sure you know we want to help you stay on the water not to say we are the only game in town. Good luck and stay charged. Jim Payne President of Retrotec Inc

Hey Jon i am always looking for new ideas but i think it would be cheaper and easier just to buy a fuel cel and install it in the back of the truck. Good luck

Scott to answer you question about over charging. The altonater is only going to put out what the batteries are asking for. In ten years i have been charging trolling batteries i have not once had a overcharged battery.

Good question Scott, Unlike an AC charger our system is designed to feed the battery only the amount of charge that they need. A DC alternator charge is different, it is what your battery wants and the vlotage regulator on the alternator insures that no more is sent to the battery than what it desires, just like your trucks battery. We are actually siphoning a charge from an alternator VS forced feeding them through an AC converted to DC charge. This type of charge is actually good for the battery and can increase its life based on test we have done over the years.

If we were having some problems with this charger not working properly or not fully charging the batteries as we claim, we would have been the first to know about it. So far with over 2000 of them sold and on boats we have had no complaints and we replaced the one with the bad LED.

To further explain our “ALLCHARGE” system. It is a smart box that allows up to 4 seperate batteries wired in series and/or in parallel to be charged by: #1, your tow vehicle. #2 your boats charging system pulled off the cranking battery or by hooking up a portable AC charger to it to charge all the batteries on the boat at the same time, one at a time in a timed sequence. We do it 12V at a time.
For example if it is taking you 3 single bank chargers to charge 3 batteries you could actually still use your onboard charger but you would only need one charger wired to the smart box. Same thing with those 1.5amp topping chargers. One hooked up to our unit will allow you to top off all you batteries with one charger instead of a charger for each battery. I hope that makes some sense. We will be doing some shows and tourneys this season yet. Maybe we can have the opportunty to show it to some of you in person. It is pretty darn impressive.

Our system is also lightweight (4lbs total with wire) and that is a true benefit if speed and boat weight is an issue.

This system is just another way to keep your boat ready for the water and perfect for lazy guys like me and Jim who have one too many times ignored our batteries after our fishing trip and when we wanted to go later we couldn’t.

NOW WE CAN!!

Don’t mean to be long winded, just trying to explain this as best as i can.

Later All
Bob

Hi Jim,

This is the other lazy guy i was talking about.

Quote:

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To further explain our “ALLCHARGE” system. It is a smart box that allows up to 4 seperate batteries wired in series and/or in parallel to be charged by: #1, your tow vehicle. #2 your boats charging system pulled off the cranking battery or by hooking up a portable AC charger to it to charge all the batteries on the boat at the same time, one at a time in a timed sequence. We do it 12V at a time.

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That part about charging from my boats charging system has me interested. I am thinking of a place like voyagers where I could be out for an extended period of time and not have AC to plug into at the end of the day. Do you have any information on how long of a run it would take to charge a 24 volt system that had been discharged 50%?

Hey Apple Valley is my home also. I would be more then happy to show it to you. 50% dead would take about 25 to 30 minute run to full depending on the size of outboard. My number is on my web site stayncharge.com Jim Payne

I am curious about what the effect might be on the vehicle’s alternator. Wouldn’t the overuse seriously decrease it’s life expectancy?
Also, I was told that deep cycle batteries need to be charged differently than a regular car battery. Isn’t that why people buy deep cycle battery chargers?

Gator Hunter

In ten years i have never had any one say the alternator died and you know if they had a problem i would here about it. As far as charging thought the altenator it only gives the batteries what they are asking for. If they need 30 amps the alternator will produce thirty amps and if they want one amp the will only draw one amp. There are pro fisherman on all the big fishing tours that still charge there batteries with a regular charger out of there garage. I can not tell you why the industry has done what they did but i would guess alot of it has to do with making money. The altenator on you truck is atleast rated 100 amps and you will never use more then 30 amps on normal use so that is alot of amps left over that the altenators are built for. I hope this helps

Maybe I can get you guys to weigh in on something that I discovered last night. I recently moved my TM batteries and continuing to charge with a portable was a total pain in the rear. I bought a Guest on-board 2-bank charger and installed it last night.

The disturbing thing was that (24V system) when I connected the last lead to the second battery I got a spark. I double-checked the wiring diagrams, thinking that maybe the banks had to be biased a certain direction, but it was wired per the diagram, so I connected it up and plugged ‘er in. This AM I’m showing green blinkies on both batteries, indicating that everything did what it was supposed to do.

So the problem I have is, why the sparks? I had imagined that the banks were on separate transformers (or at least separate secondaries) and that the rectifiers were isolated. I can’t figure on how they isolated the banks in a way that would allow any current feedback. Is there a conditioning cap big enough to throw noticeable sparks in there? That seems like a somewhat questionable design, given that Guest doesn’t know the length of the cables to the TM, and you get a volatage spike back into the charger/batteries when the current is cut.

On your system, are you switching in the TM batteries based on a current sensor on the main battery? How are you isolating the batteries, since Guest apparently doesn’t do it the way I would’ve thought? Are they switched in simultaneously, with separate isolated banks, or are you time-slicing the charge between the two? Are you using power bricks to regulate the volatage to the TM’s, or are you just isolating them and switching them “on”?

Hey Gianni you must be a tech person. Great question. First as far as guest goes unless you had the power on when hooking up the charger i could not say why it would of sparked. I would call them and ask why. From all the people i deal with they have a great tech service group. Now as far as what we do i will not get to tech about it because we have patents still pending on some of the system but through software we are able to read voltage.Through digital switching we take the power generated by the tow vehicle or the outboard motor and we let the batteries control what they need for amps we distribute the power to each battery in five minute cycles which also gives the batteries that are on the off cycle to settle and when it is there cycle we get a more true reading and they get a cleaner and faster charge. I hope this helps.

Something that was said earlier made me think that your system used a time-slice mechanism as you’ve described. Pretty clever scheme, but I was surprised to hear that it’s microprocessor driven and not just a counter/timer circuit with some discrete logic (lower production cost).

Are you selling them with a burnable/rewritable flash part? The main reason I’m curious about that is because I’ve noticed, especially when river fishing, I might only run the O/B for a few minutes at a time, especially when hopping wingdams. In that case, it seems like a shorter cycle might be beneficial.

Man you are smarter then i am. I have a engineering company that comes up with this stuff, i just tell them what i want. And yes we originally had it in ten minute cycles and a few bass pros that used the last system told me how far they would go so i had them put it to five minutes. Yes i could be done on any time scale.

I knew there was a reason I asked you to help me answer these questions. I figured it was going to get pretty technical. Just a side note here…. I have known Jim for 7 years and I have to say he is a man of action. 6 years ago he told me about this idea and I have to say I was pretty darn confused with what it did and how it worked. He took this from idea to product in less than a year and he has done everything he can to improve the system and introduce a product that is a mixture of new technology and all of the ideas that you fishing folks and the manufactures have requested. I have been using the original sytem personally on my truck and boat and have had no problems with it at all in 4 years of using the StayNCharge. I had a line of buddies waiting for me to charge their batteries on my last fishing outing and with no power available at all at the camp site I saved alot of hassle and dissapointment for them all by keeping their batteries charged up during the whole week. I have had no problems with my altenator and have enjoyed knowing that no matter where I am, I can used my trolling motor anytime and I will never have a dead cranking battery. I hope we get a chance in the future to meet up with some of you at an outing sometime. Sure would be nice to get in some fishing instead of working on this charger all the darn time. I am sure Jim feels the same way. We need to go fishing dude….SOON!

You might consider doing what variable livewell timers do, and mount a rheostat/potentiometer knob on the case to set the time constant. Really, 5 minutes is going to probably cover 90% of fishermen, but like I said, it’s those 10% that are going to make a fuss and cause you headaches down the road.

The easiest way to do it is to use a simple timer, something in a 14 or 16 bit up-counter, and clock it with an RC where the R is set by a rheostat (probably wired in series with something that will give you at least a minute per battery before switching). The other way to do it, since you’ve obviously got an A/D on board would be to set an unused channel with a rheostat and simply read it with the microprocessor. If you’re thinking about a high-volume production application, the timer is probably a fifty cent part, but it sounds from the description of your switching mechanism that you can’t get rid of the microprocessor (although a comparator and a counter still wouldn’t come near the recurring cost price of a microprocessor any bigger than a pic).

One other question that I have is how you guys torture test these things. I assume that small companies don’t have the sort of resources that companies like mine have. Are there shops that contract environmental testing? Just curious how hard it was for y’all to jump through FCC certifications and what-not, and whether the unit has been dropped, shocked, vibed, and thermal-cycled out of it’s mind yet and survived. My guess is that small craft are probably one of the harshest environments a commercial product has to endure, sitting outside all winter, all summer, road shock, outboard vibration, on and on. Add to that the typical crappiness of outboard charging systems (most put out between 12 and 20 volts, depending what kind of mood they’re in).

All in all, I’ve got to hand it to you guys for making a go of this. Best of luck to you.

Man where were you three years ago? I started this deal to just help the guys that had 12 volt batteries and had to take the battery out of the boat and put it into the garage to charge it. a red and black wire with a circuit breaker to protect it.
I can not tell you how much i thank you for the info you have given. I have copied your last post and i will be faxing it to my engineers in the morning if you do not mind and see what they have to say. I have talked to other people about the prosseser and they have told me about your thoughts and i am not a engineer but i do know what i want and how i want it. I want it to be the best that will help they fishermen that are using it. And that is my bottom line. I would love to pick your brain some day in the future if we both get the chance. Thanks for the help

I heard Gianni can be hired for side jobs for a fee

I hope he likes Jim’s wages…. One Venison Steak cooked to order,(hope ya like it spicy) 3 beers and a bucket full of bait per day (if you have a boat and take him fishing) He’s been known to bonus you an extra beer or two if you actually work and break a sweat. After that all hes good for is good conversation and friendship.

Later