advice sought re: deer shotgun

I agree with Gary. I have an 870/Hastings combo that I could shoot 2 inch groups easily at 100 yards. One year I outshot my 30-06 at 100. I was using the 1 oz Barnes Expanders at the time (3/4 came out the next year), and I fely I could “hold-on” at 125 yards, and hold 3 inches high at 150, and hit a deer vitals with confidence from a decent rest. I would think with the 3/4 oz slugs, 200 would be doable, but after that range many slugs start to tumble.

We can use rifles now and I never use that gun anymore, but I can’t get myself to sell it because I like it so much.

Practice, and knowing your gun, load, and trajectories are the keys to long range shooting. Use a rest, or a prone or seated position whenever possible. I know someone above said they have shooting sticks, that will be my next investment. Also, long shots are running deer are tough, you REALLY need to know your load and trajectories then. Especially with slower moving slugs.

was 5 for 7 with the muzzleloader last fall. Sometimes need more than one shot, cause wanna kill more than one deer!

was 5 for 7 with the muzzleloader last fall. Sometimes need more than one shot, cause wanna kill more than one deer!

gun is dead-nut on at 50 yds, shooting two inch groups with open sights. Anything up to maybe 100 is dead if its standng there, just can’t hit em on the move!

gun is dead-nut on at 50 yds, shooting two inch groups with open sights. Anything up to maybe 100 is dead if its standng there, just can’t hit em on the move!

thanks for the advice! check out posting by S. Plantz on backyard bucks…I’ve shot 92 deer, and this one was the biggest.

thanks for the advice! check out posting by S. Plantz on backyard bucks…I’ve shot 92 deer, and this one was the biggest.

Dont get me wrong guys ,thats just me . I feel that scouting is 1/2 of the fun of hunting. I want to see the deer and judge him to see if he is what I want to shoot in that part of the season. Ie. first day he has got to be a wall hanger, by Monday its a different story. I still do not have that much confidence in a shotgun to go more than 100 yrds. With my set up my red dot is as big as the chest of the deer when you get out too far I am sure a good scope would be better but the way we hunt it is a good combo.

Dont get me wrong guys ,thats just me . I feel that scouting is 1/2 of the fun of hunting. I want to see the deer and judge him to see if he is what I want to shoot in that part of the season. Ie. first day he has got to be a wall hanger, by Monday its a different story. I still do not have that much confidence in a shotgun to go more than 100 yrds. With my set up my red dot is as big as the chest of the deer when you get out too far I am sure a good scope would be better but the way we hunt it is a good combo.

I’m with Spinner Dave on this one. I shoot a Moss 500A with a red dot and can nail about an 8″ group @ 100yds. I can do a little bit better with more expensive ammo, but I really don’t need it because I only carry the shotgun when we’re driving deer. If I’m waiting one out, the muzzleloader sits across my lap.

As far as multiplying group size by distance (i.e. 4″ at 100yds = 8″ at 200), that’s only half the story. As the slug loses energy/velocity, it becomes unstable; this has little effect at normal shotgun ranges, but you guys are stretching that mark some.

I’m with Spinner Dave on this one. I shoot a Moss 500A with a red dot and can nail about an 8″ group @ 100yds. I can do a little bit better with more expensive ammo, but I really don’t need it because I only carry the shotgun when we’re driving deer. If I’m waiting one out, the muzzleloader sits across my lap.

As far as multiplying group size by distance (i.e. 4″ at 100yds = 8″ at 200), that’s only half the story. As the slug loses energy/velocity, it becomes unstable; this has little effect at normal shotgun ranges, but you guys are stretching that mark some.

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As far as multiplying group size by distance (i.e. 4″ at 100yds = 8″ at 200), that’s only half the story. As the slug loses energy/velocity, it becomes unstable; this has little effect at normal shotgun ranges, but you guys are stretching that mark some.

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Gianni is right at them distances you really have to start thinking of the loss of knock down power and penetration. Remember that when you decide to pull the trigger is is your responsibility to kill the animal as cleanly and efficiently as possible.

Gator Hunter

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As far as multiplying group size by distance (i.e. 4″ at 100yds = 8″ at 200), that’s only half the story. As the slug loses energy/velocity, it becomes unstable; this has little effect at normal shotgun ranges, but you guys are stretching that mark some.

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Gianni is right at them distances you really have to start thinking of the loss of knock down power and penetration. Remember that when you decide to pull the trigger is is your responsibility to kill the animal as cleanly and efficiently as possible.

Gator Hunter

Gianni;

Yes you are right, to an extent. Under normal circumstances, with par ammo, it only goes so far.

I have a few buddies who shoot competitively. They taught me those calculations. However, these guys shoot 800 yards. If they can’t hit 5 out of 5 on an 6″ circle, they do not qualify.

Par ammo will give you par results. Par shooting skills will also give you par results.

My point is that you need to practice. If you think that you can pick up a gun and go deer hunting and make good shots, without practicing, it won’t work.

Again, the gun is as accurate as the shooter.

If you are shooting 12 inch pattern @ 50 yards. You will not hit a deer @ 100 yards. That was my point in this calculation.

Gianni;

Yes you are right, to an extent. Under normal circumstances, with par ammo, it only goes so far.

I have a few buddies who shoot competitively. They taught me those calculations. However, these guys shoot 800 yards. If they can’t hit 5 out of 5 on an 6″ circle, they do not qualify.

Par ammo will give you par results. Par shooting skills will also give you par results.

My point is that you need to practice. If you think that you can pick up a gun and go deer hunting and make good shots, without practicing, it won’t work.

Again, the gun is as accurate as the shooter.

If you are shooting 12 inch pattern @ 50 yards. You will not hit a deer @ 100 yards. That was my point in this calculation.

Hey guys, I had an uncle with a serious desire to every year go to alaska and hunt moose. I know alot of guys would shoot a faster round but from what my uncle told me is the slower the bullet the longer it stays in the animal. A fast round hunting moose and he said it would go right straight through and he’d run. A slower bullet and it would roll him over on his side and he wouldn’t get up. He said he could see the shockwave from the slower rounds move from where it intered then go through his whole body so im not shure if a faster round is always a good thing for killing power. I know it is for accuracy but im not shure that it has a whole lot to do with killing power. Im interisted if anyone knows this ratio here, message back if you do because i want to know this one too.

Hey guys, I had an uncle with a serious desire to every year go to alaska and hunt moose. I know alot of guys would shoot a faster round but from what my uncle told me is the slower the bullet the longer it stays in the animal. A fast round hunting moose and he said it would go right straight through and he’d run. A slower bullet and it would roll him over on his side and he wouldn’t get up. He said he could see the shockwave from the slower rounds move from where it intered then go through his whole body so im not shure if a faster round is always a good thing for killing power. I know it is for accuracy but im not shure that it has a whole lot to do with killing power. Im interisted if anyone knows this ratio here, message back if you do because i want to know this one too.

From what I’ve been told, it is the bullet design, not speed that will create havoc on an animal.

My utmost preference would be to have the fast designed bullet, with a design that will mushroom on impact. My preferred (I’m old school) round is a “boat tail soft point”. This round creates a very flat trajectory, however will mushroom very nice on impact. I know that there are new designs out there that will perform much better “today”, but I haven’t had the chance or need to experiment with them yet.

Just a note, (again, I’m not bragging, just stating trajectory facts). I’ve shot a .308, 800 meters and hit a 18″ square target with open sites. I also connected with that same size target @ 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, & 750 meters. Again, this is just with a simple .308 caliber round. The round had nothing special done to it. It was all in the barrel.

Mossydan; I do hear what your saying about the moose hunting. My dad pumped 4 .308 rounds into a big bull before it dropped. He pumped the rounds one after another. All 4 rounds went into the “boiler room”.

Another true story was when my uncle went on a elk hunt in Colorado back in the 70s. He was using a .300 H&H mag. Across the valley, stood a big bull 400+ yards. The guide, who was glassing the bull, told my uncle to take him. My uncle shot, the bull shook it off and just stood there. So my uncle shot again……no movement from the bull. He shot again……..the bull didn’t even twitch. With him getting angry, and the guide yelling……..he took one more shot. the bull still didn’t move………….Then the guide told him to stop…………..They sneaked up on the bull and when he shot it the first time, hit it perfect in the spine, killing the animal. The antlers got caught up in a tree behind the bull. My uncle had three more shots in the chest, leaving an exit wound about the size of a basketball. The bull was dead and didn’t move, so when my uncle kept shooting, it looked like he kept missing…….

From what I’ve been told, it is the bullet design, not speed that will create havoc on an animal.

My utmost preference would be to have the fast designed bullet, with a design that will mushroom on impact. My preferred (I’m old school) round is a “boat tail soft point”. This round creates a very flat trajectory, however will mushroom very nice on impact. I know that there are new designs out there that will perform much better “today”, but I haven’t had the chance or need to experiment with them yet.

Just a note, (again, I’m not bragging, just stating trajectory facts). I’ve shot a .308, 800 meters and hit a 18″ square target with open sites. I also connected with that same size target @ 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, & 750 meters. Again, this is just with a simple .308 caliber round. The round had nothing special done to it. It was all in the barrel.

Mossydan; I do hear what your saying about the moose hunting. My dad pumped 4 .308 rounds into a big bull before it dropped. He pumped the rounds one after another. All 4 rounds went into the “boiler room”.

Another true story was when my uncle went on a elk hunt in Colorado back in the 70s. He was using a .300 H&H mag. Across the valley, stood a big bull 400+ yards. The guide, who was glassing the bull, told my uncle to take him. My uncle shot, the bull shook it off and just stood there. So my uncle shot again……no movement from the bull. He shot again……..the bull didn’t even twitch. With him getting angry, and the guide yelling……..he took one more shot. the bull still didn’t move………….Then the guide told him to stop…………..They sneaked up on the bull and when he shot it the first time, hit it perfect in the spine, killing the animal. The antlers got caught up in a tree behind the bull. My uncle had three more shots in the chest, leaving an exit wound about the size of a basketball. The bull was dead and didn’t move, so when my uncle kept shooting, it looked like he kept missing…….

Practice is the most crucial aspect to any shooting, and twice so with riflery because familiarity with the gun is more critical than in shotgunning. I agree with you 100%.

On velocity and knockdown power, both play a crucial role. For the most part, the knockdown situation is entirely counterintuitive. Bullet design plays a significant role, because it determines energy transfer. The more energy transferred to the target (obviously) the better the knockdown power. Of course, there is more to it than just energy transfer, for instance: The ultimate design for transfer would be a fragmenation round. Unfortunately, a fragmentation round that will transfer the energy where it’s needed (i.e. the vitals) would be extremely difficult to design and could never be used as a general purpose cartridge.

With a given transfer capacity of the cartridge, one would think that heavier bullets would be better. This is not the case. The equation for kinetic energy is KE = mv^2/2. The energy goes up linearly with mass, but as the square of velocity. This means there’s more ‘payback’ for when trading mass for velocity. If you look at muzzle energy for various cartridges, a .22-250 stacks right up there with the best of them, but would not be a practical hunting cartridge for large game due to the bullet’s inability to maintain mass and penetrate the vitals (back to that bullet-design thing again darnit)!

Practice is the most crucial aspect to any shooting, and twice so with riflery because familiarity with the gun is more critical than in shotgunning. I agree with you 100%.

On velocity and knockdown power, both play a crucial role. For the most part, the knockdown situation is entirely counterintuitive. Bullet design plays a significant role, because it determines energy transfer. The more energy transferred to the target (obviously) the better the knockdown power. Of course, there is more to it than just energy transfer, for instance: The ultimate design for transfer would be a fragmenation round. Unfortunately, a fragmentation round that will transfer the energy where it’s needed (i.e. the vitals) would be extremely difficult to design and could never be used as a general purpose cartridge.

With a given transfer capacity of the cartridge, one would think that heavier bullets would be better. This is not the case. The equation for kinetic energy is KE = mv^2/2. The energy goes up linearly with mass, but as the square of velocity. This means there’s more ‘payback’ for when trading mass for velocity. If you look at muzzle energy for various cartridges, a .22-250 stacks right up there with the best of them, but would not be a practical hunting cartridge for large game due to the bullet’s inability to maintain mass and penetrate the vitals (back to that bullet-design thing again darnit)!