Being in the boat with Matt and seeing a demo up close, I’m hoping to have a Bulldog for the ’09 Sturgeon Excursion! They can be set so light..that I’m sure they will detect the light bite of a Lake Sturgeon and it’s just what the Dr ordered for the rod that’s behind me. Bulldog Strike Sensors….not just for walleyes anymore! 
Any know when the numbers will be out?
My area has been going down hill since 2003(could be longer, but could not find the data pre-2003).
Permit area 241
Year Deer Shot per/sq mile
2003-11.23
2004-9.81
2005-8.70
2006-9.26
2007-8.85
2008-8.14
2009-8.78
2010-6.80
2011-5.99
2012-5.52
Message to Bluff Bucks-How do we get APR pushed in my area? Obviously the DNR only enforces the rules and does not change to the laws. The area I’m in already has a lot of people using their own QDM practices, but would be nice if everyone had to follow the rules. I just bought property in the Hillview Management area(google it) and was really surprised by the number of deer and buck to doe ratios. However, the number of 1 1/2 year old bucks was rediculous and lack of 2 1/2+ deer seen was worrysome. A balanced age structure is a sign of a healthy herd. This leads me to believe not everyone in Hillview is practicing the same management goals.
Here is a message I received from Leslie McInenly from the MN DNR after asking if talks of adding APR’s to other portions of the state…
“We aren’t currently considering APR expansion for a number of reasons…recent legislation, information re: public support, want to focus on monitoring impacts in SE, deer population goal setting… (but it doesn’t mean off the table). ”
I really hope that the public support in SE MN increases and they pave the way for APR’s to be added in other areas of the state. The following states have some sort of APR system already in place and it seems to be gaining more and more public support every year. Michigan, Missouri, New York, *Pennsyvania, Texas, West Virginia, North Carolina, *Vermont, Virginia, Kentucky, *Arkansas, Louisiana, *Mississippi, *Alabama, *Georgia, Florida, South Caronlina, *California, Oregon, Illinois, *New Jersey. States with * next to them are states that have the program statewide. Obviously public support in those states have said it’s working and it would work really well in MN.
I’ve definitely noticed an increase in the number of bucks I’ve seen since APR, but I’ve also noticed a huge decrease in the number of does. I can only assume that’s a direct result of the APR? Perhaps people are using their tags for does instead? Not sure. In an area where I normally see multiple does every sit, I’ve seen a total of 12 all season, and many could’ve been the same deer. I’ve heard the farmers are losing money to crop damage and that they’re blaming the APR for this too.
Guess it’s a give and take. My concern is that with a decreased amount of does, that the population will take a significant hit. It is nice seeing more bucks running amok though…
I just did some online searches and it looks like the Mn statewide harvest peaked in 2003 and has slowly dropped since. 290,000+ registered in 2003 and only 192,000+ registered in 2011. It would likely be hard to pin anything on one specific management tool.
I hunt in permit area 344(whitewater area) and have for over 40 years, I hunt nothing but public land. the hunt this year reminded me of deer hunting in the early 70’s.
Because of APR the deer herd on public land has been all but wiped out.for the past 3 years the does have been slatered. I wonder were the 1 1/2 year old bucks come from that we so desporatly need to protect?
watch what you wish for.
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I hunt in permit area 344(whitewater area) and have for over 40 years, I hunt nothing but public land. the hunt this year reminded me of deer hunting in the early 70’s.
Because of APR the deer herd on public land has been all but wiped out.for the past 3 years the does have been slatered. I wonder were the 1 1/2 year old bucks come from that we so desporatly need to protect?watch what you wish for.
I appreciate your feedback. However, I only hunt private land and permit area 241 has a very limited amount of public ground. I don’t think it suits areas with a lot of public ground very well. This is the first time in 3 years I’ve purchased a MN tag(refused to hunt public land).
DNR says the havest is down 6% from last year. It seems every year it’s blamed on the weather, rather than taking accountability for the mismanaged resource.
I also agree that the doe population has fallen off a bit where we hunt private/public one of the other groups have just been beating the does up bad last couple of years. in are group nobody shoots does until the end of the season and they have not been there but their are more mature bucks.
I would counter you Slack and say that I hunt RIGHT next to you. I absolutely object to APR being the reason for your decreased sightings. We have on private grounds maintained an easy 3-4:1 doe to buck ratio and believe me we shoot does for every tag available. I monitor 1700+ acres on a daily basis amongst 25 or landowners and your results I can assure you with much better knowledge and reporting of the area (including Whitewater) than you than I suspect you have, that you are witnessing hunter pressure. The pressure has always been there but it is at high levels now (no thanks to lesser amounts of public land) but also severely reduced Set aside acreage immediately adjacent, and so forth.
The fawn ratio this year in the immediate area was spectacular this year, as well as a much needed trend of decreasing coyotes finally. (The rabbits are finally coming back!)
Lastly, Whitewater is highly depended on ACORNS exactly as is the case on the property I hunt and believe me we went from a normal wintering herd of 150 deer to 25 last year. They are sliwly moving back in but the facts are, your deer are not gone. They are displaced unpropotionately for many reasons and it has very little to do with APR in the 4 short years it has been around.
Lastly, dont forget that the majority opposed to APR argue the special interest of trophy buck hunters as the number one advocates when the reality is it is just one effect of the APR design goal. The other design goal is to sustain a manageable size herd of multiple year classes. If you dont believe this goal fits in the most populated per capita hunter area in SE MN then you are missing the boat of the entire APR design.
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I would counter you Slack and say that I hunt RIGHT next to you. I absolutely object to APR being the reason for your decreased sightings. We have on private grounds maintained an easy 3-4:1 doe to buck ratio and believe me we shoot does for every tag available. I monitor 1700+ acres on a daily basis amongst 25 or landowners and your results I can assure you with much better knowledge and reporting of the area (including Whitewater) than you than I suspect you have, that you are witnessing hunter pressure. The pressure has always been there but it is at high levels now (no thanks to lesser amounts of public land) but also severely reduced Set aside acreage immediately adjacent, and so forth.
The fawn ratio this year in the immediate area was spectacular this year, as well as a much needed trend of decreasing coyotes finally. (The rabbits are finally coming back!)
Lastly, Whitewater is highly depended on ACORNS exactly as is the case on the property I hunt and believe me we went from a normal wintering herd of 150 deer to 25 last year. They are sliwly moving back in but the facts are, your deer are not gone. They are displaced unpropotionately for many reasons and it has very little to do with APR in the 4 short years it has been around.
Lastly, dont forget that the majority opposed to APR argue the special interest of trophy buck hunters as the number one advocates when the reality is it is just one effect of the APR design goal. The other design goal is to sustain a manageable size herd of multiple year classes. If you dont believe this goal fits in the most populated per capita hunter area in SE MN then you are missing the boat of the entire APR design.
Justin,
No desrespect but how can you sit there and compare hunting on PRIVATE land to hunting on PUBLIC land. You say you watch over 1700+ acres of land, well let me ask you this. how many hunters hunt this land? I’m sure it’s a very controled number.As far as your belief the deer have been displaced your right they have, TO PEOPLES FREEZERS.
There’s ruffly 70,000 acres of public land in the whitewater valley and over 40+ years of deer hunt there I have become vary fomiliar with a lot of it. I f the are just “displaced” as you believe I would have found them. I don’t just go sit in woods in the same place day after day and not see any deer. This year I hunted more of the valley then I ever had in one year. I saw the same thing every where NO deer but what was more alarming NO SIGN.
I can live with APR what I can’t live with is the slaughtering of the doe’s.
Maybe next year I can come hunt with you and you can teach me all about deer and deer hunting.
Was never meant to be arrogant Vikefan. I dont own one acre of the private land I hunt. The point was the land is great hunting because of the tremendous pressure on Whitewater. I was only objecting to the sampling that was used against APR. In fact, I hunt on a piece of public land in Mower county that is fabulous deer hunting, under hunted and equal or better to the private land I hunt on both sides of it. I would share this info with anyone interested and serious about herd management, and yes that piece needs some does removed badly. I also hunt a piece of private land in Fillmore county and the neighboring property (private land) allows any person who asks to hunt on his 300 acres, he offers a slip with permission and multiple parties hunt it effectively. Not meant to be condescending in any way, just pointing out objectives to a biased sample.
Lastly, I have been a member of IDO since 2001 when there were less than 200 people that had ever visited the site and it was an info sharing site. I have never ever attempted to offend anyone but somehow, the conversation the last few years has always had to lead to the right and wrong and its worse then reading the comments at the bottom of a Yahoo article, yet nobody asks around for a good hunting spot or blames the private landowner for no permission granted when they havent spent the previous 9 months researching the options that are available.
SLACK if you want some good public opportunties and a few private parties to ask permission let me know. I envy you for having the drive to spend the last few years on that property.
This will be my official last post all as an IDO Member 
Was nice to hunt, fish with and to meet some of you!
Guys,
I know this is a “politics/religion” type conversation. All I ask is for everyone to remember we are in this together. If you don’t like someone’s opinion, let it roll off your back. We will not tolerate personal attacks.
One of the best parts of the hunting side of IDO is the rareness we all don’t get along.
So, let’s get back to a constructive conversation even if we don’t see eye to eye.
Thanks!
John
These numbers represent the asinine number of does that are allowed to be harvested IMO. APR doesn’t fix that.
2003-11.23
2004-9.81
2005-8.70
2006-9.26
2007-8.85
2008-8.14
2009-8.78
2010-6.80
2011-5.99
2012-5.52
Bring back doe permit lottery and a strong deer herd then I might consider supporting APR. As long as 4 points is enough. 
Not sure how what I said could’ve possibly been considered as a personal attack. Was simply calling the spade a spade. Even though I saw it that way, I sure as heck don’t want anyone to up and leave. I just don’t think we need to be putting each other down, as we have enough of an issue keeping the anti’s at bay…
241 went to managed in 2010(hence the 1.98 deer per/sq mile drop from 09’/10′), so hopefully it stays that way(even if the herd does bounce back).
My property has 1.5 miles of perimeter around the property. Of those 1.5 miles, 1.25 borders neighbors that practice QDM(I did my research pior to buying). Those neighbors shot 5 does(we shot 1) and 2 mature deer(huge 9pt and giant 12pt). That’s on 500 acres. We saw numerous 1 1/2 bucks running around every sit and we passed a few decent 2 1/2 8pts. The problem we have is the lone neighbor to the SW that owns 40 acres and shoots anything that walks. It’s frustrating when you put the time in for food plots, stands, trails, etc etc to have them shoot a spike or fork and ruins the area for other land owners. I understand they bought a tag and have the right to shoot a deer, but why not shoot a doe. It’s very easy to do so in this area. If they need the meat, I bet a 2 1/2 year old doe has the same amount of meat as a 1 1/2 buck.
Lets say there are 6 or 8 young bucks running around an area. How is killing 1 or 2 impacting anything? I think some can be shot. People like to hunt for game and eat venison so you cant ask everyone to only shoot big antlers on the off chance they might see one and you cannot keep targeting does heavily or there will be no deer to shoot.
I hope you are not actually tuning out webstj. You are one of the guys on here that thinks about an entire system before interjecting random incomplete thoughts. I am not even sure what was said but I hope you stick around.
Many of us invest everything we have into our time in the outdoors, sometimes opinions differ which is what is great about this site. We are allowed to discuss our opinions but any name calling or personal attacks can be done elsewhere and have no place here.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have attacked nobody.
I realize tyhat much of what you are debating/dicussing relates to MN. However, what I am reading directly relates to what, we in WI, have been griping about for a number of years. As you discuss this, keep in mind suitable habitat. I’ve seen properties with 80 deer per square mile and go 2 miles away and not see crap. The holding power of specific property types can greatly alter one’s thinking.
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I can live with APR what I can’t live with is the slaughtering of the doe’s.
In MN you are not going to get it both ways. The problem is that some folks want this statewide, not just in the SE part of the state. I have no horse in this race regarding the SE, but hunting traditions, family traditions, and mostly the monies involved in deer hunting, are not going to allow it to be both ways, especially statewide. Incidentally, I came over to this forum for exactly the issues of this topic that got out of control, IMHO, on another MN regional forum. I mean, does it mean we have to go back what we had in around 1971 where there was no deer hunting season at all because of the lack of does? Not now, especially in the area I hunt. Lots of does this year in that area, which is not in SE MN. Randy W. called it right with the comment(s) about habitat, and the lack thereof. Folks need to start looking at this, and quit restricting deer hunting further with APR, and other changes. Just my .02
there’s an awful lot of deer in area 241. the mix of woods and agriculture is productive and with almost all private land it means less harvest than other areas.
on our 80 acres (2 hunters) in area 241 we’ll shoot an 8pt or better and just take photos of the smaller ones. if the nicer bucks outsmart us we take a doe for the freezer. we’ve been successful on a shooter buck 4 of the last 5 years without needing the state to mandate it for us in spite of being surrounded by other private land hunters. we did notice fewer does this year, but i suspect that has more to do with a long winter than DNR hunting rules.
if you want your neighbors to change their habits, try talking to them. we don’t need more laws!
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there’s an awful lot of deer in area 241. the mix of woods and agriculture is productive and with almost all private land it means less harvest than other areas.
on our 80 acres (2 hunters) in area 241 we’ll shoot an 8pt or better and just take photos of the smaller ones. if the nicer bucks outsmart us we take a doe for the freezer. we’ve been successful on a shooter buck 4 of the last 5 years without needing the state to mandate it for us in spite of being surrounded by other private land hunters. we did notice fewer does this year, but i suspect that has more to do with a long winter than DNR hunting rules.
if you want your neighbors to change their habits, try talking to them. we don’t need more laws!
Exactly. I agree.
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