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This is something that ALL Deer hunters should have a voice in.
You have every oppurtunity to have a voice in these decisions. The world is run by those who show up, if you do not care enough to attend some meetings, how upset could you be?
Gary,
I think you are simply trying to stir the pot. Let’s not lose sight of the fact the government dictates many, many things we can and can’t do on our land. I can’t even build a deck on my house without their permission. Do I think the DNR is perfect, heck no, I complain about them all the time. I think having the rifle season open during the rut is like netting spawning walleyes, seems unfair to the deer doesn’t it? 
If all the bucks on your property in zone 3 are nocturnal, I would bet you a large sum of money there is a reason. Pressure. There are mature deer killed all over this country day in and day out. I don’t see how zone 3 in Minnesota can be any different. I agree the older bucks get, the more nocturnal they will become IF they are pressured. Another fact about old bucks, 5.5 years or older, their home range becomes VERY small. If you are not hunting the spot on the spot, you simply won’t see these crafty devils.
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Because archery is about the hunt, not the animal, right?????
It’s comments like this that are quite disappointing to me. I believe we are all entitled to our opinions, but when I see people within the hunting community trying to divide the group as a whole, it is disheartening. If you believe the archery guys in Zone 3 are repsonsible for APR, then go to the meetings. Gather all those opposed and use the system as it was meant to be. That is democracy at it’s finest. I don’t know how APR got implemented, but I promise you some group used the system.
No nerves struck here. I think conversation and debate only helps to educate us all. 
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The truth being special interest of the minority being shoved down the throat of the majority, through lobbying of our government.
I don’t understand this quote from Gary.
The majority favor APR’s. Are you aware of that?
And lastly… I just want to put this to rest. I hear it from Gary and a few others around.
APR is not about trophy hunting. It is simply about protecting yearling bucks! Allowing bucks a chance to mature and when I say mature i’m referring to 2 1/2 years old. Its creating a more balanced structure on the male side of the herd and giving them a chance to form a natural hierarchy.
Think of all the deer you have seen over the years in the field and on camera. With APR you can shoot a 7 point or better buck. How may little basket 8 pointers have you seen. Generally a buck doesn’t reach trophy potential until he is about 4 1/2 years old. Of course there are some genetically superior and they can become trophy book deer at 2 and 3 years but the on average it takes a couple years.
There is no regulation protecting those deer. If this was simply a trophy program it would be run a lot different.
APR = Protection of yearling bucks.
And your right Gary, this isn’t soccer. 
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The average hunter is not going to take time and drive miles away to go to a meeting or fill out a online survey. The simplest way to do it is a poll at license purchase time.
This question was actually asked at one of the public meetings last year and I can not remember the answer the DNR gave but for what ever reason it was not an option. I will see if I can find out what the reason was.
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The average hunter is not going to take time and drive miles away to go to a meeting or fill out a online survey. The simplest way to do it is a poll at license purchase time. That way all deer hunters have a voice in the matter. Like politics I just don’t like choices being made for many by just a FEW outspoken hunters. Not when there is a way to hear from the whole.
This question was actually asked at one of the public meetings last year and I can not remember the answer the DNR gave but for what ever reason it was not an option. I will see if I can find out what the reason was.
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Like politics I just don’t like choices being made for many by just a FEW outspoken hunters. Not when there is a way to hear from the whole.
The decision to keep or do away with APR will not be made by hunters or the DNR it will be made the legislators after this year. For or against APR the only way to get your voice heard is to contact your legislator and let them know how you feel. One thing I need to correct you on is it is not just a FEW outspoken hunters who want to see some kind of deer management in place to protect young bucks. Weather it is selective harvest, QDM or APR like it or not this group of sportsmen are not in the minority they are the majority.
Hi Gary!
I wondered how long it would be before your replied to this thread. 
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It has nothing to do with buck harvest or balance of heard. If that was the case, there would be less does taken OR there would not be an open buck harvest. This would be regulated by the DNR, just like it has for anterless harvest for so many years.
Not sure I understand your point here Gary? This year the DNR has decreased the number of does to be taken. They have removed most of the intesive harvest areas in the state, most areas hunters can only take two deer and each hunter can only take one buck no party hunting for bucks.
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All archery should be anterless only. Because archery is about the hunt, not the animal, right?????
The truth being special interest of the minority being shoved down the throat of the majority, through lobbying of our government.
Gary if I am understanding you correctly you belive that BWA is a group of hard core bow hunters, is that correct? As I have said in the past the BWA board is made up of ten guys, out of the ten only two of them are hard core bow hunters who do not gun hunt. The other 8 board members are gun hunters so it is not only bow hunters who want change. Does BWA lobby the goverment? Yes they do that is how laws get changed, and I do belive hunters who what change are in the majority not the minority.
As always Gary there are no hard feelings here at all, like John said I ejoy our debates here and I do respect your opinon as I hope you respect mine.
Steve, I have a question if the “MAJORITY” of hunters support this and over 90 percent of hunters in zone 3 hunt private land why do we need APR?
can’t the MAJORITY just practic QDM on there own and not force it on EVERYONE?
Yes i go to a lot of the public meetinds the DNR holds and I’ve asked this question more then once to Lou Cornicelli in person and via e-mails and each time i got NO response.
Now theres a guy i can get behind and support.
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Steve, I have a question if the “MAJORITY” of hunters support this and over 90 percent of hunters in zone 3 hunt private land why do we need APR?
can’t the MAJORITY just practic QDM on there own and not force it on EVERYONE?
Yes i go to a lot of the public meetinds the DNR holds and I’ve asked this question more then once to Lou Cornicelli in person and via e-mails and each time i got NO response.
Now theres a guy i can get behind and support.
What is wrong with protecting yearling bucks?
Oh.. and don’t answer this by saying that you don’t want the GOVERNMENT telling you what you can and can not shoot. They already do for hunting and fishing. It called PROTECTION of the natural resources. WITHOUT that PROTECTION take a look at Red Lake and the path that Mille Lacs is in when it comes to walleyes. The hunting and fishing community is huge and we need to stay within boundaries and MANAGE our game. APR is a proven management tool that has worked.
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Oh.. and don’t answer this by saying that you don’t want the GOVERNMENT telling you what you can and can not shoot. They already do for hunting and fishing. It called PROTECTION of the natural resources. WITHOUT that PROTECTION take a look at Red Lake and the path that Mille Lacs is in when it comes to walleyes. The hunting and fishing community is huge and we need to stay within boundaries and MANAGE our game. APR is a proven management tool that has worked.
I take it you can’t or won’t answer this question eather.
and if you want to compare fish to deer shouldn’t we protect the BIG deer(breaders) and kill the little ones.
also if i claim to be a meat hunter I’m sure you’ll say shoot a doe, (again breading stock) heres somthing else for you to chew on for every doe you shoot, on average you’ve killed 3 deer. I’d hate to see MN have to close the deer season AGAIN.
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and if you want to compare fish to deer shouldn’t we protect the BIG deer(breeders) and kill the little ones.
You are making a GREAT point here and if you believe what you just typed than you support APR. You are just a little backward.
A good friend Ted laid it out perfectly for me once. These are his words….
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In areas of Minnesota where APR is not implemented, you can expect 70 – 80 of all bucks to be harvested. This is similar to other states such as Missouri and Pennsylvania prior to APR implementation. A majority of these bucks harvested are yearlings. In fact, we are among the leaders in the nation in percentage of yearling bucks in the total harvest. In 2010, we actually led the nation in yearling buck harvest at 67% of our total harvest consisting of yearling bucks. The 3 year APR trial in zone 3 has brought this down some, but we are still among the national leaders due to other parts of the state that are still under traditional management.
So what does all this mean biologically speaking? First of all, with such a large number of bucks harvested, you get very few bucks breeding more than one year due to them being killed. Because of this, you have a lot of inexperienced bucks doing the majority of the breeding and they never establish a hierarchy. They simply all take part in the breeding activities. With APR, you start to see a buck age structure that is more balanced across several age classes. This happens because 75% of all yearlings survive the deer season and they are allowed to breed more than one year. Additionally, these older bucks now start to exhibit their dominance and their aggression can actually suppress testosterone levels in the younger bucks and keep them from breeding. This does two things. First of all, it assures that the yearling bucks spend their time building up energy reserves to help them grow healthier in future years rather than expending their energy reserves on breeding. Secondly, this hierarchy that develops allows bucks to establish a breeding pecking order, and the stronger and more superior bucks will do more of the breeding, again creating a healthier herd in the long run. Yearlings will still breed even with a balanced buck age structure, however, it will be significantly less than when the age structure is skewed strongly towards yearlings.
Data from other states shows that yearling buck harvest goes from 50+% to under 20%. There is no reason we can’t expect similar results in Minnesota.
One theory states that when you have a better balanced buck to doe ratio, the breeding phase will be shorter and more intense, resulting in a fawn drop that is condensed the following spring. This allows for better fawn survival because fawn predators are simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of fawns. There is not however, significant data from the other APR states to allow us to understand the true impact of this yet.
From a biology standpoint, one thing that you can expect to see is very intense pre-rut and rut activity. This is all more natural behavior and the way deer populations interacted before we started shooting all the bucks. You will see more buck fights and scraping activity. Bucks will get more aggressive towards each other because of the increased competition from experienced bucks. If you ever tried using scents, rattling, and other forms of calling with minimal or no success, you should see a big change in this. The increased age of the bucks coupled with the increased competition will suddenly provide you with deer that are willing to respond to these tactics.
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Oh.. and don’t answer this by saying that you don’t want the GOVERNMENT telling you what you can and can not shoot. They already do for hunting and fishing. It called PROTECTION of the natural resources. WITHOUT that PROTECTION take a look at Red Lake and the path that Mille Lacs is in when it comes to walleyes. The hunting and fishing community is huge and we need to stay within boundaries and MANAGE our game. APR is a proven management tool that has worked.
I take it you can’t or won’t answer this question eather.
and if you want to compare fish to deer shouldn’t we protect the BIG deer(breaders) and kill the little ones.
also if i claim to be a meat hunter I’m sure you’ll say shoot a doe, (again breading stock) heres somthing else for you to chew on for every doe you shoot, on average you’ve killed 3 deer. I’d hate to see MN have to close the deer season AGAIN.
Slack I find it hard to believe that Lou would not answer your question as every meeting I have been to he has always answered any question he was asked. As a matter of fact I emailed your question to Lou and here was his reply to your question.
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Steve,
Simply, voluntary regulations don’t work. I understand the education argument and it would certainly be nice but the reality is no one person (with rare exception) controls enough land to influence the outcome of everyone else. Hence, the “if I don’t shoot it someone else will” mentality that exists just about everywhere. Unless landowners form a cooperative like you see out West, that will never happen. I’m not sure who the poster is since he’s not using a real name but I’ve answered that question every time I’ve been asked. Certainly, if he wants to talk to me about it, he can contact me. So you know, I’ll be leading the SE evaluation this year because it’s my project; however, I was promoted out of the big game position a year ago and we’ve yet to hire a suitable candidate. Hopefully, that will happen soon.
Take care,
Lou
Lou Cornicelli, Ph.D.
Wildlife Research and Policy Manager
Minnesota Dept. of Natural Resources
500 Lafayette Rd.
St. Paul, MN 55155
651-259-5202
[email protected]
WOw intense. I def have alot to learn that was good. Educational I liked it whos got the smarts to argue that. Haha 
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I think it is kind of funny how some of those who are in favor of it say – the DNR should make it state wide. but then in another post state that government has to much control over people these days. So as long as the control is for something they agree with it’s Ok but, if not then the government should just stay out of it.
You replied to my post with this post so I have to ask, I hope you are not referring to me here? Please show me where I have ever said anything even remotely close to this.
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The truth being special interest of the minority being shoved down the throat of the majority, through lobbying of our government.
By the way Gary I forgot to mention that there is a special interest group out there that is against APR that has done everything in there power to do away with APR. So APR supporters are not the only group out there that has a special interest group.
As many of you know, APR came under serious jeopardy a couple years ago. The politician behind all of this was Steve Drazkowski. I just wanted to say that he is up for election this year and is now running in District 21B (not 28B). He is running against Bruce Montplaisir.
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By the way Gary I forgot to mention that there is a special interest group out there that is against APR that has done everything in there power to do away with APR. So APR supporters are not the only group out there that has a special interest group.
Its should be no secret that the MDHA is the only driving force against APR’s. When a majority of the people in Zone 3 wanted to see the regs they were the only ones lobbying to stop this. Then 2 years into it they again tried to put it to an end. Their small interest unfortunately has some influence. Its sad when the majority wants something and they chose to attempt to stand in the way.
I belive it should be a hunters choice what size buck he wants to harvest. People get way too wrapped up in big antlers imo. I am just as happy shooting a fork horn as I am a 8 point because to me it is still enjoyable and exciting to be hunting and being successfull no matter how big the antlers are. I know people who only want to shoot big deer every year and Every year they expect to get a monster. That’s fine by me if you want to be selective and go for the monster every year but I don’t think it should be mandatory. I enjoy eating my vennison no matter what the antler size. If you want to manage land and let the younger deer go then why don’t you buy yourself 500 acres and manage it yourself?
ok ill do that 500 acres, can I borrow some money buddy?
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Oh.. and don’t answer this by saying that you don’t want the GOVERNMENT telling you what you can and can not shoot. They already do for hunting and fishing. It called PROTECTION of the natural resources. WITHOUT that PROTECTION take a look at Red Lake and the path that Mille Lacs is in when it comes to walleyes. The hunting and fishing community is huge and we need to stay within boundaries and MANAGE our game. APR is a proven management tool that has worked.
I take it you can’t or won’t answer this question eather.
and if you want to compare fish to deer shouldn’t we protect the BIG deer(breaders) and kill the little ones.
also if i claim to be a meat hunter I’m sure you’ll say shoot a doe, (again breading stock) heres somthing else for you to chew on for every doe you shoot, on average you’ve killed 3 deer. I’d hate to see MN have to close the deer season AGAIN.
Slack I find it hard to believe that Lou would not answer your question as every meeting I have been to he has always answered any question he was asked. As a matter of fact I emailed your question to Lou and here was his reply to your question.
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Steve,
Simply, voluntary regulations don’t work. I understand the education argument and it would certainly be nice but the reality is no one person (with rare exception) controls enough land to influence the outcome of everyone else. Hence, the “if I don’t shoot it someone else will” mentality that exists just about everywhere. Unless landowners form a cooperative like you see out West, that will never happen. I’m not sure who the poster is since he’s not using a real name but I’ve answered that question every time I’ve been asked. Certainly, if he wants to talk to me about it, he can contact me. So you know, I’ll be leading the SE evaluation this year because it’s my project; however, I was promoted out of the big game position a year ago and we’ve yet to hire a suitable candidate. Hopefully, that will happen soon.
Take care,
Lou
Lou Cornicelli, Ph.D.
Wildlife Research and Policy Manager
Minnesota Dept. of Natural Resources
500 Lafayette Rd.
St. Paul, MN 55155
651-259-5202
[email protected]
Steve,
I appreciate your effort and in put on this.the trueth of the matter is on 1-11-12 i sent an e-mail to Lou, i also copied Tom Landwehr, and Denny McNamara (my represenative)
with my concernes of the direction the deer herd was heading in SE MN. In this e-mail I asked the exact same question. I would be more then happy to post the response i got but I’m still waiting for one. I guess an average Joe like me does’t have much pull with the DNR. And yes i did put my real name and contact info on the e-mail.
Now on to the nuts and bolts, I only hunt public land which is a completely differant then hunting private land. you have deal with crowds. No i do not support APR but it’s not just the APR it’s the other rule changes they made also, first off they made the A season and the B season exactly the same, now it may be differant on private land but on public there was a big increase in the hunters during the A season, again it’s public land and i just have to deal with it. The no cross tagging was the big hit to our party, I know you can still “party hunt for does” but we have always refraned from shhot a lot of does, they are the true future of the herd. A guy goes out now and is fortunate enough to shoot a legal buck he’s done. Some hunters have this misconception that one guy in a party is going out and “PILING EM UP LIKE CORD WOOD” in the 40 plus years we’ve been hunting SE MN it is very rare for a guy to shoot more then 1 buck.
I know I’m just 1 vioce which doesn’t mean anything in todays world and i bring nothing to the table except 40+ years of deer hunting in SE MN which means even less. God knows i don’t enjoy deer hunting like i use to but i still go because my son enjoys it, he’s 20 now and as long as he still can put up wiyh it I’ll still go.
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I guess an average Joe like me does’t have much pull with the DNR. And yes i did put my real name and contact info on the e-mail.
Ron,
I think Lou was reffering to this thread and he did not know that you could click on your user name and see your real name in your profile. Trust me I am no one special same average Joe as you, I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this topic and leave it at that. 
Best of luck to you this year in the deer woods! 
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