QDM, Can it work in MN?

Any thoughts?

Yes, it can and does work(in certain areas) in MN. But like many things, it starts with education. Hunters like fisherman need to understand it’s ok to implement selective harvest. But in the same instance selective harvest may not be for everybody. Pounding the ideals of QDM down people’s throats is the wrong way to go about. We found out very early on Christianity isn’t for everybody. It’s no different here.

Too often I’ve encountered hunters that live by a strict code of QDM and have been blasted for shooting a “non-quality” deer. Well, little do they know that deer put food on my table and I DID NOT shoot that deer just because it had horns. Many times it’s the only opportunity that presented itself. For better or worse I took it.

I believe QDM will work and does. Like I said, it starts with education.

Yes, it can and does work(in certain areas) in MN. But like many things, it starts with education. Hunters like fisherman need to understand it’s ok to implement selective harvest. But in the same instance selective harvest may not be for everybody. Pounding the ideals of QDM down people’s throats is the wrong way to go about. We found out very early on Christianity isn’t for everybody. It’s no different here.

Too often I’ve encountered hunters that live by a strict code of QDM and have been blasted for shooting a “non-quality” deer. Well, little do they know that deer put food on my table and I DID NOT shoot that deer just because it had horns. Many times it’s the only opportunity that presented itself. For better or worse I took it.

I believe QDM will work and does. Like I said, it starts with education.

I think it would be next to impossible to force on all or most public lands without some sort of incentive. Maybe on a limited area basis like they currently do with fish regulations on certain lakes? I would support it.

I think it would be next to impossible to force on all or most public lands without some sort of incentive. Maybe on a limited area basis like they currently do with fish regulations on certain lakes? I would support it.

It can absolutely work in MN. No doubt about it. The Great Caledonian is correct, too, when he says it starts with education. In my home state, Kansas, it worked like a charm only because our DNR, known as Kansas Dept. of Wildlife and Parks(KDWP), came up with some very good methods to educate people. They also gave them a vision of what the whitetail herds of the future could look like instead of just telling people what to do and not telling them why. It takes everyone spreading the word every chance they get, though. The results are impressive, as Kansas is home to outstanding numbers of record-book bucks.

Mark

It can absolutely work in MN. No doubt about it. The Great Caledonian is correct, too, when he says it starts with education. In my home state, Kansas, it worked like a charm only because our DNR, known as Kansas Dept. of Wildlife and Parks(KDWP), came up with some very good methods to educate people. They also gave them a vision of what the whitetail herds of the future could look like instead of just telling people what to do and not telling them why. It takes everyone spreading the word every chance they get, though. The results are impressive, as Kansas is home to outstanding numbers of record-book bucks.

Mark

Kansas is a very well documented case of QDM. However, I’m not sure Minnesota will have the same results. I see so many people who shoot bambi each fall, I’ve had dogs bigger than some of the deer I see in the back of pickups and on trailers.

He MW,

How long did it take for this theor to really take affect in Kansas?? I would love to see it work here.

Kansas is a very well documented case of QDM. However, I’m not sure Minnesota will have the same results. I see so many people who shoot bambi each fall, I’ve had dogs bigger than some of the deer I see in the back of pickups and on trailers.

He MW,

How long did it take for this theor to really take affect in Kansas?? I would love to see it work here.

I am pretty much a supporter of QDM, but not totally sold. I like it in theory, there are just some issues with it that make it a bit troublesome. A few of which I see are:

1) Unless large tracts of land are involved and TOTALLY committed to it, I don’t think it would work, at least not to a large extent. What is a large tract? I have no idea. I know some guys that try with 400 acres and the neighbors don’t do it, and success is limited.

2) I know of another group that passes on small bucks but shoots alot of antlerless because the landowning farmer wants the population down. They harvest most antlerless on drives, and shoot all antlerless. Last year, I think they got 7 or 8 yearling bucks. I’m not a QDM expert, but I don’t think that is good.

3) Are most people really running a QDM, or are alot of them running a TDM (trophy deer management) plan, or in fact, not a real plan at all, just trying not to harvest smaller bucks solely for the purpose of getting more big racks on the land.

4) If they are running a true QDM, how many actually have a good idea of the true buck/doe ratio on their land? How many have the time/resources to assess this?

5) (This is a big problem for me) – When does a deer become a shooter? I don’t like spread rules, last year I saw two BEAUTIFUL tall thick racks tht weren’t over 14 inches wide. Under most “spread rules”, they should not have been shot. I thought they were very worthy. I think field identification of 1.5 year olds is for the most part pretty easy, but it gets tricky for me anyway at longer ranges (gun hunting situations, I don’t bow hunt) to try and determine for sure if it is 2.5 or 3.5 or what.

There are probably more, just sick of typing now, this is getting too long.

As for me, I don’t shoot 1.5 year old bucks, only shoot antlerless when I am sure they are not little bucks, and decide on the fly on all other bucks. Just my own personal philosophy I guess. If you do different, that’s fine by me.

Some who hunt on neighboring land around me do QDM, some don’t, and some think they do, but really don’t. I think it is a tough thing to do unless you can get a large chunk of land for it, and everyone is committed to it.

I am curious to hear the criteria everyone uses to decide whether or not they decide to pull the trigger when a buck does come into range?

I am pretty much a supporter of QDM, but not totally sold. I like it in theory, there are just some issues with it that make it a bit troublesome. A few of which I see are:

1) Unless large tracts of land are involved and TOTALLY committed to it, I don’t think it would work, at least not to a large extent. What is a large tract? I have no idea. I know some guys that try with 400 acres and the neighbors don’t do it, and success is limited.

2) I know of another group that passes on small bucks but shoots alot of antlerless because the landowning farmer wants the population down. They harvest most antlerless on drives, and shoot all antlerless. Last year, I think they got 7 or 8 yearling bucks. I’m not a QDM expert, but I don’t think that is good.

3) Are most people really running a QDM, or are alot of them running a TDM (trophy deer management) plan, or in fact, not a real plan at all, just trying not to harvest smaller bucks solely for the purpose of getting more big racks on the land.

4) If they are running a true QDM, how many actually have a good idea of the true buck/doe ratio on their land? How many have the time/resources to assess this?

5) (This is a big problem for me) – When does a deer become a shooter? I don’t like spread rules, last year I saw two BEAUTIFUL tall thick racks tht weren’t over 14 inches wide. Under most “spread rules”, they should not have been shot. I thought they were very worthy. I think field identification of 1.5 year olds is for the most part pretty easy, but it gets tricky for me anyway at longer ranges (gun hunting situations, I don’t bow hunt) to try and determine for sure if it is 2.5 or 3.5 or what.

There are probably more, just sick of typing now, this is getting too long.

As for me, I don’t shoot 1.5 year old bucks, only shoot antlerless when I am sure they are not little bucks, and decide on the fly on all other bucks. Just my own personal philosophy I guess. If you do different, that’s fine by me.

Some who hunt on neighboring land around me do QDM, some don’t, and some think they do, but really don’t. I think it is a tough thing to do unless you can get a large chunk of land for it, and everyone is committed to it.

I am curious to hear the criteria everyone uses to decide whether or not they decide to pull the trigger when a buck does come into range?

I’ve got a question, if theres a slot limit or certain deer sizes to follow whos wants to shoot one if theres a chance that he’ll get a healthy ticket. This takes all the fun out of hunting and the unfortunate guys who do take a deer that falls into this class will now have to pay fines, loose on thier hunting point system etc. Too me it has got to be voluntary, too much rig a ma roll otherwise, like they’ve been doing in kansas seems to work. Any sort of change takes time but if its a good idea it will eventually have more followers. Maybe its a good idea to put an emphasis on taking only does, no button bucks, spikes or any antlers at all for a few years to bring numbers of bigger bucks up. I live where theres lighter hunting pressure so im trying to absorb whats being said. If we hunted only does the population would go down on the does because thier being hunted plus the drop in sales of deer liscenses, but thats not all that bad. If this took place over 4 years here our deer herd would be full of shootable bucks. Maybe the dnr there could try it in one or two counties for 3 years to see what happens. If theres posative results, which im shure there would be, show the results in the final report to the rest of the counties. A 4 pointer can go to 10 or 12 in 3 years if left to grow and also sire other bucks too grow. I know that a deer herd doubles every four years if left unchecked.

I’ve got a question, if theres a slot limit or certain deer sizes to follow whos wants to shoot one if theres a chance that he’ll get a healthy ticket. This takes all the fun out of hunting and the unfortunate guys who do take a deer that falls into this class will now have to pay fines, loose on thier hunting point system etc. Too me it has got to be voluntary, too much rig a ma roll otherwise, like they’ve been doing in kansas seems to work. Any sort of change takes time but if its a good idea it will eventually have more followers. Maybe its a good idea to put an emphasis on taking only does, no button bucks, spikes or any antlers at all for a few years to bring numbers of bigger bucks up. I live where theres lighter hunting pressure so im trying to absorb whats being said. If we hunted only does the population would go down on the does because thier being hunted plus the drop in sales of deer liscenses, but thats not all that bad. If this took place over 4 years here our deer herd would be full of shootable bucks. Maybe the dnr there could try it in one or two counties for 3 years to see what happens. If theres posative results, which im shure there would be, show the results in the final report to the rest of the counties. A 4 pointer can go to 10 or 12 in 3 years if left to grow and also sire other bucks too grow. I know that a deer herd doubles every four years if left unchecked.

I HAVE SET A PERSONAL GOAL OF NOT SHOOTING AT A BUCK UNLESS, IN MY BEST JUDGMENT, IT WOULD SCORE AT LEAST 140. I HUNT SOME PRIVATE LAND NEAR DOVER/EYOTA MN WITH BOW AND GUN.(240 ACRES).

DURING GUN SEASONS, A LOT OF THE BUCKS ARE CLEANED OUT BY OTHER HUNTERS ON NEARBY PROPERTIES. MOST OF THE BUCKS I PASS ON I KNOW WILL PROBABLY NOT SURVIVE, BUT AT LEAST I GIVE THEM A CHANCE.
WITH THIS PHILOSOPHY, I HAVE HAD SOME SUCCESS WITH 175 INCHER IN 1999, SEEN A 170 + IN 2001, AND HAVE BEEN WATCHING A DEER THAT WAS ABOUT 120 IN 2001, 140-150 LAST YEAR, AND I CAN ONLY HOPE TO GET A SHOT AT HIM THIS YEAR IF STILL ALIVE.
THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE BIGGER BUCKS IF PEOPLE WOULD PASS ON THE 1.5 AND 2.5 YEAR OLDS.
MY QUARTERS WORTH.

I HAVE SET A PERSONAL GOAL OF NOT SHOOTING AT A BUCK UNLESS, IN MY BEST JUDGMENT, IT WOULD SCORE AT LEAST 140. I HUNT SOME PRIVATE LAND NEAR DOVER/EYOTA MN WITH BOW AND GUN.(240 ACRES).

DURING GUN SEASONS, A LOT OF THE BUCKS ARE CLEANED OUT BY OTHER HUNTERS ON NEARBY PROPERTIES. MOST OF THE BUCKS I PASS ON I KNOW WILL PROBABLY NOT SURVIVE, BUT AT LEAST I GIVE THEM A CHANCE.
WITH THIS PHILOSOPHY, I HAVE HAD SOME SUCCESS WITH 175 INCHER IN 1999, SEEN A 170 + IN 2001, AND HAVE BEEN WATCHING A DEER THAT WAS ABOUT 120 IN 2001, 140-150 LAST YEAR, AND I CAN ONLY HOPE TO GET A SHOT AT HIM THIS YEAR IF STILL ALIVE.
THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE BIGGER BUCKS IF PEOPLE WOULD PASS ON THE 1.5 AND 2.5 YEAR OLDS.
MY QUARTERS WORTH.

I can tell you it works very well! I live in the original QDM management unit in the UP. This is the fifth season that bucks have to be at least 3 pts on a side to harvest. The numbers of 2 1/2 yr olds that are making it to the next year have been remarkable. This is a poor picture of last years deer. A nice 177#(field dressed) 9 pt that was aged at 3 1/2.
I saw 2 other bucks this approximate size and a bigger one, while passing up several smaller bucks. a few years ago we would go all season without seeing ANY mature bucks. This is Public Land with a lot of rifle season pressure. But many Sportsmen groups spent 3 years really promoting this to the hunters in the area. Without cooperation from hunters it simply will never fly.

This would only work if the hunters agree to it. I know there are many deer hunters who only go out on opening weekend plus a couple vacation days and want to fill their tags. Ask them to pass on a little six on day three, I’m not seeing it. A friend of mine hunts in Buffalo county in Wisconsin and their group and most of their neighbors have all agreed to a “spread outside the ears” slot (if you will). I have seen their trophy wall and it is quite impressive! My guess is that a MN state-wide mandate would get alot of push back from hunters. If your party would like to increase the chance of seeing older bucks and impose a size/spread limit then that’s cool. I have mixed feelings on a putting limits on everyone.

My 2.

I can tell you it works very well! I live in the original QDM management unit in the UP. This is the fifth season that bucks have to be at least 3 pts on a side to harvest. The numbers of 2 1/2 yr olds that are making it to the next year have been remarkable. This is a poor picture of last years deer. A nice 177#(field dressed) 9 pt that was aged at 3 1/2.
I saw 2 other bucks this approximate size and a bigger one, while passing up several smaller bucks. a few years ago we would go all season without seeing ANY mature bucks. This is Public Land with a lot of rifle season pressure. But many Sportsmen groups spent 3 years really promoting this to the hunters in the area. Without cooperation from hunters it simply will never fly.

This would only work if the hunters agree to it. I know there are many deer hunters who only go out on opening weekend plus a couple vacation days and want to fill their tags. Ask them to pass on a little six on day three, I’m not seeing it. A friend of mine hunts in Buffalo county in Wisconsin and their group and most of their neighbors have all agreed to a “spread outside the ears” slot (if you will). I have seen their trophy wall and it is quite impressive! My guess is that a MN state-wide mandate would get alot of push back from hunters. If your party would like to increase the chance of seeing older bucks and impose a size/spread limit then that’s cool. I have mixed feelings on a putting limits on everyone.

My 2.

I feel the same riggy. Where i live theres an abundance of does of all sizes plus lots of smaller bucks roaming around. Theres enough shootable bucks here that it keeps me in my stand. If i don’t get a shot at a bigger buck thats ok because i can fill my tag with a decent doe. If a guy eases up on the younger bucks they will be around next year. If a guy wants a bigger mature buck herd shoot only does or antlerless.

I feel the same riggy. Where i live theres an abundance of does of all sizes plus lots of smaller bucks roaming around. Theres enough shootable bucks here that it keeps me in my stand. If i don’t get a shot at a bigger buck thats ok because i can fill my tag with a decent doe. If a guy eases up on the younger bucks they will be around next year. If a guy wants a bigger mature buck herd shoot only does or antlerless.

I might as well chime in on this one. This is a very touchy subject for me. I have made a personal choice on my standards for what I will or will not shoot in a buck. This being said I do not believe that I have the right to tell somebody else what they can or cannot shoot when they paid the money for the same license that I have. I would have a real problem if somebody told me I could not shoot a legal deer because it does not meet their standards. I will acknowledge that shooting young bucks is not good for the quality of deer in any area but it is not my place to tell somebody else this.
Just to be clear, I do not shoot immature bucks.

Gator Hunter

I might as well chime in on this one. This is a very touchy subject for me. I have made a personal choice on my standards for what I will or will not shoot in a buck. This being said I do not believe that I have the right to tell somebody else what they can or cannot shoot when they paid the money for the same license that I have. I would have a real problem if somebody told me I could not shoot a legal deer because it does not meet their standards. I will acknowledge that shooting young bucks is not good for the quality of deer in any area but it is not my place to tell somebody else this.
Just to be clear, I do not shoot immature bucks.

Gator Hunter

The biggest difference I see between KS and MN is the number of hunters. I’m not sure about the current numbers, but as of a few years ago, there were 80,000 hunters in KS compared to 470,000 in MN. Whether or not that will make a difference I don’t know. The KDWP, along with the landowners and hunters, concentrated their efforts on studying the genetics of the deer in each area and weeded out the undesirable genes. The other thing they really focused on was helping hunters to distinguish between the different age groups of bucks. These two factors had, by far, the biggest impact on making this a successful program. The key to all of this was educating. Most of the people who listened to the KDWP thought they already knew all there was to know about bucks, only to later find out that they really didn’t know that much at all. None of this was forced upon anyone down there. The hunters just took a valiant approach to improving the bucks in their area. They used peer pressure to make it sound like this was the “in” thing to do. One other thing the KDWP did was to actually help landowners purchase the right crops for food plots and informed them on how to maintain them correctly. It’s hard to say how long all of this actually took, because it’s still going on, but I would say the “monster” bucks started being harvested within about 5 years. To me, a five-year investment consisting of passing on smaller bucks, taking out the smaller ones that do not have the potential to grow quality racks, and even passing on 140-class bucks so they have one more year to spread their genes was well worth it to ensure quality hunting for Kansas’s future.

Mark

The biggest difference I see between KS and MN is the number of hunters. I’m not sure about the current numbers, but as of a few years ago, there were 80,000 hunters in KS compared to 470,000 in MN. Whether or not that will make a difference I don’t know. The KDWP, along with the landowners and hunters, concentrated their efforts on studying the genetics of the deer in each area and weeded out the undesirable genes. The other thing they really focused on was helping hunters to distinguish between the different age groups of bucks. These two factors had, by far, the biggest impact on making this a successful program. The key to all of this was educating. Most of the people who listened to the KDWP thought they already knew all there was to know about bucks, only to later find out that they really didn’t know that much at all. None of this was forced upon anyone down there. The hunters just took a valiant approach to improving the bucks in their area. They used peer pressure to make it sound like this was the “in” thing to do. One other thing the KDWP did was to actually help landowners purchase the right crops for food plots and informed them on how to maintain them correctly. It’s hard to say how long all of this actually took, because it’s still going on, but I would say the “monster” bucks started being harvested within about 5 years. To me, a five-year investment consisting of passing on smaller bucks, taking out the smaller ones that do not have the potential to grow quality racks, and even passing on 140-class bucks so they have one more year to spread their genes was well worth it to ensure quality hunting for Kansas’s future.

Mark

Good thoughts, I wasn’t expecting to see so many replies.
I think the state made a mistake, in issueing “Buck Only” licenses when trying to manage the states deer population. The state made it acceptable to shoot anything with a rack as a means to controll the population, when we probably should have been shooting antlerless deer for pop. controll. This year will be the first step towards that.
How many of you that hunt the 3A gun season applied for the antlerless permit?
I my self didn’t. The reason being, I’m a bowhunter first and a gun hunter second. Applying for tha doe permit in 3A and then tagging a doe during the 3A season cancels out your archery tag for the rest of the year, which in zone 3 means through Dec. 31st.
In a perfect world the dnr would give the hunters in 3A the opportunity to apply for an intensive harvest tag instead of an either sex permit. Any thoughts on that?

Good thoughts, I wasn’t expecting to see so many replies.
I think the state made a mistake, in issueing “Buck Only” licenses when trying to manage the states deer population. The state made it acceptable to shoot anything with a rack as a means to controll the population, when we probably should have been shooting antlerless deer for pop. controll. This year will be the first step towards that.
How many of you that hunt the 3A gun season applied for the antlerless permit?
I my self didn’t. The reason being, I’m a bowhunter first and a gun hunter second. Applying for tha doe permit in 3A and then tagging a doe during the 3A season cancels out your archery tag for the rest of the year, which in zone 3 means through Dec. 31st.
In a perfect world the dnr would give the hunters in 3A the opportunity to apply for an intensive harvest tag instead of an either sex permit. Any thoughts on that?

I thought on the ohter thread I saw someone attribute some of Iowa’s success to QDM, but there is no QDM program that I’m aware of in Iowa. In fact, up until about two years ago, there were still counties in which hunters could only shoot bucks. The gross number of antlerless tags are population control, in my understanding (i.e. not related to QDM efforts).

That being said, Iowa is still the #1 place in the world to come whitetail hunting. This is largely the reason I’ve never seriously considered leaving the state. I’m not enthralled by QDM, especially given that Iowa had been doing almost the exact opposite for 20 years and still maintained a healthy herd with many trophy-class bucks.

Are people interested in QDM for it’s trophy potential? If that is the case, then I’m totally against it. Deer hunting, especially in Iowa, has gotten so overcommercialized that it’s difficult to even enjoy it sometimes. Seems like every year one of the neighboring property owners comes over and complains about us hunting ‘near his place’ even though we’re 100% legal.

What constitutes a trophy? IMO, it’s a deer that’s outsmarted hunters and lived to a ripe old age. I’d be more proud of an old, toothless, bent-backed buck with a horked up rack than a gogeous 3 1/2 year old 170+ buck (though I’d take either). No doubt that anyone who shoots a buck earned his trophy, but did his trophy earn his status if he’s been passed on every season of his life?

A good example: There’s two bucks in South Central Iowa that a handful of guys have been chasing for three years now. One is a typical called “Iowa’s walking world record” as a pair of sheds recovered supposedly scored enough to make it. The other is a non-typical that is equally giant. People have been in active pursuit of these bucks for three years running during all seasons and they have survived wounding, getting hit by a car, etc.

As far as people complaining about not seeing any bucks, what do you expect? No offense, but big bucks didn’t get that way from being stupid. I have seen one good buck from my bowhunting stand in 4 years, and he was rut-crazed at the time. In one week, a camtrakker caught pictures of 7 different bucks moving through there at night. People who complain about not seeing big bucks are really complaining because shooting one is not as easy as they think it should be in their drive-thru, 24hr news channel world.

I thought on the ohter thread I saw someone attribute some of Iowa’s success to QDM, but there is no QDM program that I’m aware of in Iowa. In fact, up until about two years ago, there were still counties in which hunters could only shoot bucks. The gross number of antlerless tags are population control, in my understanding (i.e. not related to QDM efforts).

That being said, Iowa is still the #1 place in the world to come whitetail hunting. This is largely the reason I’ve never seriously considered leaving the state. I’m not enthralled by QDM, especially given that Iowa had been doing almost the exact opposite for 20 years and still maintained a healthy herd with many trophy-class bucks.

Are people interested in QDM for it’s trophy potential? If that is the case, then I’m totally against it. Deer hunting, especially in Iowa, has gotten so overcommercialized that it’s difficult to even enjoy it sometimes. Seems like every year one of the neighboring property owners comes over and complains about us hunting ‘near his place’ even though we’re 100% legal.

What constitutes a trophy? IMO, it’s a deer that’s outsmarted hunters and lived to a ripe old age. I’d be more proud of an old, toothless, bent-backed buck with a horked up rack than a gogeous 3 1/2 year old 170+ buck (though I’d take either). No doubt that anyone who shoots a buck earned his trophy, but did his trophy earn his status if he’s been passed on every season of his life?

A good example: There’s two bucks in South Central Iowa that a handful of guys have been chasing for three years now. One is a typical called “Iowa’s walking world record” as a pair of sheds recovered supposedly scored enough to make it. The other is a non-typical that is equally giant. People have been in active pursuit of these bucks for three years running during all seasons and they have survived wounding, getting hit by a car, etc.

As far as people complaining about not seeing any bucks, what do you expect? No offense, but big bucks didn’t get that way from being stupid. I have seen one good buck from my bowhunting stand in 4 years, and he was rut-crazed at the time. In one week, a camtrakker caught pictures of 7 different bucks moving through there at night. People who complain about not seeing big bucks are really complaining because shooting one is not as easy as they think it should be in their drive-thru, 24hr news channel world.

A lot of Iowa’s success in growing big bucks is do to the fact that they don’t hunt November through the pre-rut and rut with firearms. So their bucks have a much better chance of survival each year. I think QDM or selective harvest is more willingly practiced in Iowa then in MN, because of the fact that there are more mature deer in the herd. But, your right QDM isn’t regulated by anyone, but does get practiced in the state in many areas, especially in the NE and SE.
With the great number of quality bucks in your state, there is obviously a high number of non-resident hunters(myself included) applying for tags every year. My question to the Iowa deer hunters is, does the price on your resident deer license annually go up? If not, what is the DNR/State doing with all that revenue?