Antler-point restrictions in SE MN

  • Steve Plantz
    SE MN
    Posts: 12240
    #200245

    Minn. Could See Antler-Point Restrictions In 2010

    ROCHESTER, Minn. (AP) The Minnesota DNR indicated it’s very receptive to antler point restrictions.

    In the future, when bluff land deer hunters see a buck, they might need to take a deep breath and count to four.

    It’s possible they will have to make sure the buck has at least four one-inch tines on one side before they can shoot. That management method became the de facto focus of a late March deer-hunting round-table in Rochester.

    Bluffland Whitetails Association organized the gathering of top Department of Natural Resources wildlife managers, deer-hunter groups and experts from three other states. BWA and several other groups say they are seeing too few big bucks and want a better chance to shoot one someday. Just knowing more big bucks are in the woods would make the hunt more enjoyable, and maybe keep more people hunting.

    The question is how to get that balance. The answer that appeared most viable: point restrictions.

    Lonnie Hansen of the Missouri Department of Natural Resources is in the middle of leading such a change, and he said that although hunters objected at first, they began seeing more big bucks and changed their minds in fairly short order. Some counties now have 70 percent acceptance rates for that change, he said. The state is expanding the management technique into a majority of the state’s counties.

    After a few years, the number of yearling bucks shot in Missouri fell 66 percent, he said. But the harvest of 2.5-year-olds rose 20 percent, 3.5-year-olds was up 62 percent and older ones rose 200 percent. Keep in mind, that the 200 percent rise really means a relatively small number because there weren’t that many in the first place.

    But it was striking how Hansen said the initial hesitancy fell away when hunters got used to it and started seeing more big bucks.

    That was a theme other speakers used. Even in Minnesota, where some experimental limits on bucks have been tried in state parks, the concept grew more popular each year. Hunters tried it, and they liked it.

    The Minnesota DNR indicated it’s very receptive to antler point restrictions, and it’s likely that the southeast region would be the site of major experimental regulations. The DNR estimates that roughly half the yearling bucks wouldn’t meet the four-point standard and thus would be protected.

    Another example cited of a place where it worked was Pennsylvania. It had the worst-managed deer herd in the country because of the tradition of killing most of the yearling bucks and not taking enough does, said Marrett Grund, a Minnesota DNR whitetail expert who once worked there.

    With the restrictions, buck harvest fell from 203,000 to about 125,000 a year, he said. Hunters were happy because they now might see two or three bucks a day; before, seeing a buck was rare after the first day of the season, he said. The days of shoot-all-bucks are gone.

    Point restrictions were able to “break the back of that tradition,” he said.

    In Minnesota, buck harvest statewide with antler-point restrictions would fall from about 110,000 to about 65,000, Grund said. But it could also mean more does would be shot, because in areas where the DNR wants to cull the herd by offering many antlerless permits, 84 percent of hunters only take one deer, he said. If they can’t take a yearling, they might take a doe.

    Kip Adams, a biologist with the Quality Deer Management Association, said about 60 percent of its bucks harvested in Minnesota are yearlings, which is among the highest in the country. Having too few older bucks means more yearlings will breed. That means they go into winter in poorer shape, he said.

    The meeting, however, was just the beginning, said Dave Schad, director of the Minnesota DNR Division of Fish and Wildlife. The DNR plans to do an intensive survey of hunters in this region, then hold public meetings about possible changes. The earliest any big change will come would be 2010, he said.

    “We have a lot of work to do,” he said.

    But two other top managers added a huge note of optimism that change is coming.

    People at the meeting showed off some cutting-edge ideas, said Lou Cornicelli, big-game program coordinator. “I’m encouraged that we can begin doing all of this stuff.”

    Added Dennis Simon, wildlife section chief, “I think we are on the verge of doing something.”

    By JOHN WEISS

    Post-Bulletin of Rochester

    swimingjig
    Waumandee, WI
    Posts: 695
    #49446

    That is great. I don’t hunt in MN. but that is great to hear.

    hooknfinger
    Rochester, Minnesota
    Posts: 1290
    #49450

    Its a great idea for guys who are after a trophy, buy what about my 84 year old uncle who can only sit for a bout hour or two in the morning and right before dark. He has to wait for a 8 pointer? He doesnt care if he shoots a big buck, he just wants to harvest an animal. I dont agree with this. THere are plenty of big deer out there, people need to stop being lazy and go looking for them.

    packingheat
    Reads Landing Mn
    Posts: 696
    #49451

    a select few of hunter trying to change the rules. I hope they get a honest survey of what the hunters want.
    The Outdoor News this week still had buck contest picture. I really do not think MN. is hurting that bad.
    P.S. Griffr Seen you picture in it. Nice looking

    whitetails4ever
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 756
    #49453

    Hunters don’t “have” to wait for an 8 pointer. Its an either sex tag and there are plenty of antlerless deer in zone 3.

    webstj
    Mazeppa, MN
    Posts: 535
    #49455

    Im all for it. Even if your not in to trophy hunting, it is good for the herd for many reasons and if antlers arent important does are a great subsitute. Nothing against either side of argument, just an opinion.

    ragerunner
    Winona, MN
    Posts: 699
    #49462

    I’m ok with this. Bigger sheds are much easier to find!

    mossydan
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 7727
    #49463

    Give it a couple years and guys will be saying Im glad the Minnesota DNR did this because they’ll start seeing bigger racked bucks. Now guys are going to start seeing more 2 1/2 year olds and instead of saying there aren’t many big bucks around thier point of view will be hes going to be nice in a year or two. Even if some bucks don’t get to the size of having more tines like an 10 or a 12 because of thier genetics, the extra time in the woods for those bucks and they will now be nice 6’s and 8’s because of thier longer tines and mass with more measurements. Its a win win deal for the hunters in SE Minnesota. Im anxious to see what kind of deer guys are getting in a couple years. I know guys are going to be more selective by then.

    SLACK
    HASTINGS, MN
    Posts: 711
    #49466

    how conveniant of the BWA to organize this round table discusion and only invite people that think like them and then try to tell the DNR this is what everybody wants. these people are not looking at the big picture. not all permit areas in the SE are either sex areas and you have to apply through the lottery for a doe tag. and this QDMA what a joke, these poeple don’t care about “QUALITY DEER” all they care about is quality antlers, these lazy whiners should call them selves what they realy are. you here alot of these guys talk about genetics yet they have no problem shooting a “TROPHY BUCK” with a bow in october BEFORE the breeding season??????
    a trophy buck should be EARNED not provided. they are out there if you are willing to HUNT them.

    JAddison
    Posts: 33
    #49469

    sounds like a good idea. but i also think that trophy bucks should be earned. ya it would be sweet to see a lot of big bucks running around. and for people who just wanted to harvest an animal for the freezer could shoot a doe. just my .02

    robstenger
    Northern Twin Cities, MN
    Posts: 11374
    #49471

    Quote:


    Hunters don’t “have” to wait for an 8 pointer. Its an either sex tag and there are plenty of antlerless deer in zone 3.


    Well put Ben. If a guy does not care about a big buck and just wants to harvest, there is always does to be taken.

    whitetails4ever
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 756
    #49472

    Oh, please. The round table was open to the public and held at the event center in Rochester, where were you???
    A trophy buck shot in October isn’t earned? I happen to think the majority of October is the toughest time of the year to kill trophy/mature bucks. But apparently you know “a lot of these guys” that are doing it. I wished the DNR would keep better records for the public like some other states. Would love to see actual numbers of antlered deer harvested in Oct. And would love to see the percentage of those that are mature deer. Maybe you already know since you keep talking about “the big picture”. What a joke.

    Brad Juaire
    Maple Grove, MN
    Posts: 6101
    #49473

    Everyone hunts for different reasons and no reason is more important than another. This is just an idea at this time and the DNR will be surveying hunters in this area and they will also be holding public meetings, so everyone will get a chance to state their opinion. We as hunters must all work together and find a viable solution.

    SLACK
    HASTINGS, MN
    Posts: 711
    #49474

    wt4
    you obviously did not under stand so i will simplify. alot of these groups talk about the genetics of mature bucks and how important they are to the herd.(are you still with me so far) if they believe this to be true why wood they shoot a mature buck right BEFORE the breeding season? isn’t that taking those genetics out of the herd? and i never said a mature buck shot in october wasn’t earned. i think if you step back, take a deep breath and re-read what i said you will find that there were a few points made and they may not all be related.

    reever_1
    Rochester Minnesota
    Posts: 100
    #49475

    What about kids would they have the restrictions? I hope not, if 6 pointer walks in front of someone lets say on ther first hunt then what? Or what about the guy whom may only have 3 or 4 days to hunt? just a thought

    whitetails4ever
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 756
    #49479

    Slack, You’re going to have to explain it again, I guess. Do these same people know the importance of the genetics being passed by the doe? Remember the Punnett Square from school? Pretty sure the QDMA is aware of it. You can go ahead and shoot what you want, I really couldn’t care less. But I’m sure you wouldn’t complain about seeing a few more upper age class deer per year. And its a fact that these practices do that. Read the statistics from Penn and Missouri. I happen to be a landowner in MO and have seen first hand what this practice has done. I’m not sure why change is so difficult for some people, it’s not always bad.
    I don’t need to take a deep breath, I breath fine and sleep well at night. But I’m also not on a public forum calling people I don’t know lazy and whiners just because they have a difference in opinion.

    robstenger
    Northern Twin Cities, MN
    Posts: 11374
    #49480

    Although genetics do have a big part of determining a bucks antler potential, the biggest factor of antler development we as sportsman can control and most often neglected is simply age. With out age, no buck no matter the genetics or nutrition can reach their true potential. Although putting an antler restriction is not the best/correct way to go about it IMHO, I realize it is the most practical for the general population and it is a start. I have practiced Deer Management on a few pieces that I hunt and the results are unbelievable and apparent just after a couple years. It is a system that I do believe in and will continue to practice, but understand that not all people share my view. As far as the State setting certain rules or regulations, there are hearings where people can voice their opinion. However, I also believe that the people that make these decisions should not be appointed their job, but rather voted on by the public. Just my $.02.

    I do agree with a previous poster about age, I would also hate to restrict youth hunters and would like to see a 18 & under no restriction class.

    Lastly, Slack quit calling me lazy.

    prieser
    Byron, MN
    Posts: 2274
    #49482

    I really don’t see why this is a big deal. So instead of shooting the 1-1/2 year old spike, you have to wait to shoot the 2-1/2 year old 8 pointer . Unless the DNR says you can’t shoot any buck unless it’s at least 4-1/2 years old, how is this really effecting the QDM. Maybe I’m missing something, but this law would not effect me one way or another cause I CHOOSE not to shoot a spike and I have passed up more than my fair share of young 8 pointers. Like Ben said, you can still shoot a doe.

    SLACK
    HASTINGS, MN
    Posts: 711
    #49483

    as i stated before, some permit areas are lottery areas so if you do not get picked for a doe permit (once every 3 yrs on average in the area i hunt) you are now limited to bucks only, now they are looking at resrickting that even futher. this is what conserns me. thus the big picture theary. don’t get me wrong, i have no problem with trying to increase the amount of mature bucks but at what cost? all the talk is about more mature bucks but what about the guy who just wants to put venison in the freezer? i,ve hunted the same area of SE MN for 40yrs (except 1971) i hunt nothing but public land (16000 acers in the emidiate area) so if i realy wanted to harvest a mature buck i’m sure i could find one. but thats not my cup of tea. i will harvest what the state alows me to. i would take a 3-4 yr old doe over any buck in the woods except a buck of a life time and i only need one of them. if the state would just let me shoot a doe every year i wouldn’t care what you did with all the bucks. (i had antler steaw once and almost died)

    mpearson
    Chippewa Falls, WI
    Posts: 4338
    #49486

    This is a very interesting subject to say the least and you will get differing opinions on it! The best thing to do is to attend the public meetings to voice your opinions/concerns! (Do not rely on someone else to voice your opinions/concerns for you) Just my .02! I think I would be interested in something like this for WI!

    SLACK
    HASTINGS, MN
    Posts: 711
    #49487

    i’ve been following this for some time (years) and i have been waiting for them to say when and were these meetings will be and i will attend them as i have in the past.

    mpearson
    Chippewa Falls, WI
    Posts: 4338
    #49488

    Quote:


    i’ve been following this for some time (years) and i have been waiting for them to say when and were these meetings will be and i will attend them as i have in the past.


    That’s about all a guy can do!

    mossydan
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 7727
    #49500

    Its up to a guy what he wants to shoot but alot of guys are out there for a wallhanger. It really dosen’t trip the trigger much for some guys to take a 4 pointer and hang it on the wall if hes after a trophy. It is a trophy to some and thats accepted, it is ok to do that, the guy may never be able to go hunting again for some reason and he will have good memories to see and to remember his hunt by and his trophy hanging on the wall helps him.
    Alot of guys like a bigger deer hanging on the wall and they are willing to work for it if it takes all season. There will be plenty of smaller bucks around for the guys who eigther don’t have the time or don’t mind a smaller buck but with these rules atleast the guys who want to spend more time in the woods after a bigger one have a better chance of getting one.
    After the herd balances out with the numbers of bigger bucks being seen more frequently if one is taken in October then theres the rest of them to breed and the previous years offspring are already on the ground to spread the bucks genes even more. You have to look at this as whats going to happen to the whole herd in a 3 to 5 year span, not just next years season.
    There will always be plenty of smaller bucks around for guys who eighter don’t have the time and for any other reason, this will be a plus for the guys who want a bigger one, besides the herd will be more balanced then instead of too many smaller bucks breeding 90% of the does.
    Bigger bucks competeing for the does will sort out inferior genes, im pretty sure the younger bucks don’t do this much, I know they do some but not much.

    mossydan
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 7727
    #49511

    Doe permits being givin through a lottery and then maybe get one every three years? I can see your concern, im puzzled why the doe permits are being givin through a lottery. Isn’t there enough does? or is theres more hunters then the DNRs doe quota. This is a first for me.

    webstj
    Mazeppa, MN
    Posts: 535
    #49519

    Just a thought, but wouldnt this restriction only affect any naysayers for a yr or maybe two? If nobody can shoot the 1 1/2 yr olds, I would imagine they will all be there the next yr so the selection of 2 1/2’s should be very similar to todays 1 1/2’s making an 8 pointer very achievable. They may be older and smarter making them tougher to earn yet it should improve the buck:doe ratio which would make them a little dumber

    Only thing that sucks about the whole deal is I really should of flung on the big ol’ 6’er that I saw last fall. If he makes it another yr it sounds like he could die of old age. That said, I think it is pretty rare to see a 3-4 1/2 yr old that cant grow more than 6 points. He was a mean one too, but I was focused on something else.

    Regardless of what happens, lets all respect one another. At least we still get to hunt! I like the QDMA guys a heck of a lot better then the PETA guys and I dont know either of them.

    hooknfinger
    Rochester, Minnesota
    Posts: 1290
    #49522

    I just dont like the fact that a certain group of people get to decide what a “trophy” deer is. Everyone has their own view on what a big buck is.

    A young kid on his first hunt with his dad/grandpa/uncle whoever would be tickled pink to shoot a spike, or any buck that might not make this proposed rule. Why would you want to take away that experience from someone and turn them away from the sport. Same with elderly people.
    Instead of making rules, why not educate people and let them make the choice if they want to harvest a 130 inch buck or let it go anthor season.

    mossydan
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 7727
    #49524

    I agree, my boys first shotgun buck was a 4 pointer and I was glad he took it, I smiled from ear to ear because that was his first deer and I helped him clean it and drag it out. They ougt to put in a clause that under 16 to 18, the elderly and hadicapped get to take what they want and eighter sex, thier the ones that need it, its only fair.
    Maybe in a few years after theres bigger bucks being seen and the herd balances out they will then allow more younger bucks, if they don’t they should atleast allow a doe to be taken. Is there a problem there with low counts on does, is there enough of them?

    packingheat
    Reads Landing Mn
    Posts: 696
    #49551

    I just don’t understand the point of a trophy buck, so you are telling us if we let all the small buck go we’ll be shooting more trophy bucks .
    Well if everyone is shooting a tropy buck, wouldn’t the deer just be the norm then
    Please tell me where it’s going to stop.

    mossydan
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 7727
    #49567

    I think the antler restrictions is to put more trophy sized bucks and bigger bucks in the woods in general is the way I see it written but im from out of state and I don’t see completely whats going on there. It sounds like from what most everybody up there in Minn. and Wisc. has said the last few years is that theres a shortage of mature bucks in general from most areas, this is only my perception from whats been said by hunters here on the site. Its sounded like most hunters will and do shoot smaller bucks just to get a buck instead of taking a doe to let the younger bucks get to a more mature size. It sounds like most hunters here on the site are more concerned then the population in general about quality size. What Minnesota and Wisconsin does is up to them and the hunters and I was giving my input as to what the situation sounds like to me. I’m not feeling like I have to be on the defensive and wanted to clear my perspective. To me if an areas heavily hunted and most guys want to see more mature bucks and aren’t then those who set the rules, by imput from avid hunters, should be able to come up with a reasonable solution.

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