What does it take to make an area or county better? I realize there are alot of meat hunter out there. If you want the meat shoot a doe there seem to be plenty of them.(just an idea)
How do you get people to stop shooting the spikes and smaller bucks in the area?
How do you turn the county into a buffalo county? In this day and age
have a neighborhood meeting Has anyone ever tried this?
Deer need three things to develop to a mature deer with antlers to compare to the famous Buffalo County deer. Those 3 key ingredients being listed below:
1. Good Genetics
2. Proper Nutrition
3. And the hardest to get is AGE.
With that being said, if a deer in an area gets all three of those they may still not match the Monarchs of Buffalo County. As I believe the genetics and nutrients down there seem to be extraordinary. I believe these bucks get bigger faster, so the age ingredient is not AS important as it is in other places. What I mean is, a Buck in Buffalo County needs a lil’ less age to get big on the average. A buck down there with the proper nutrition and genetics could score 125 or better down there in 2.5 years. Where other places with good genetics and proper nutrition may take 3-4 years. Plain and simple is the genetics and nutrients are far more superior down there then most other places IMO. Not to mention the amount of people down there practicing QDM or some kind of variation of deer management is pretty lopsided compared to most other areas. Proper nutrition is not only the right minerals, food, carbs, protein, etc. It is also means plenty of it. If a single buck does not have to compete for food against 30 does, it means more food for him and less searching to find it. Thus having a good buck to doe ratio helps ensure these bucks have plenty to eat and reach their maximum potential.
The age ingredient is probably the single biggest factor we have control of as a hunter and it is the single biggest reason why we do not see very many big bucks. This is because most hunters will shoot a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck. I hear it every where I go, “If I let that buck go the neighbor will shoot it.” So what?? Maybe he will or maybe he won’t. If you shoot it, the buck for sure will not make it another year. So you sit another weekend and don’t see a bigger buck. Big deal, shoot a nice size doe. It tastes better and in my eyes a mature doe is a better trophy then a 1.5 year old basket rack any day. Scientists say that a buck becomes mature is between 4.5 to 5.5 years old and may keep growing bigger antlers until he is 7.5 or 8.5 years old. This is dependent on the bucks genetics, health, and nutrition.
We (my parties) have talked to neighbors before and sometimes it helps and sometimes it does not. One thing is it never hurts. Go around the piece you hunt and talk to them and see what they are doing and see what deer they harvest each year. Sometimes you can learn a lot of things form talking to adjacent land owners that helps you make better decisions on your own land.
I hope this helps! 
I also think a place like Buffalo county is unique for trophy hunting in the fact that there are more nice bucks. A hunter down there is more likely to pass on a smaller deer because they know the chance of seeing Mr. Big is pretty decent! This mentality breeds more. I’ve never hunted down there but I would bet that shooting a young deer is even more frowned upon for this reason. SO in a way, big bucks breed big buck hunters.
I’ve hunted up north near BigFork a few times and the party that hunts up there annually end up shooting spikes and 3 pointers every year,, the genetics in “their spot” are horrible and this is why they blast anything that moves. Through history they go with the mentality that a buck is a buck. So that combined with bad genetics equals an area that I probably won’t be hunting much anymore.
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the genetics in “their spot” are horrible and this is why they blast anything that moves
Not saying that you or they are wrong in there thinking, but I’m just wondering: If they always shoot spikes and 3’s how do you actually know they have bad genetics up there??? If a deer never has a chance at getting old and maturing, do you really know the potential of a deer? 
Good point Lip. But i have to slide a little more towards his argument. That being said, i have heard dozens of landowners/gun hunters/or two weekends out of the year hunters that say the reason why they shoot those 1.5 y/o is because the deer only get that big and nothing bigger. It all starts because one simple mind decides to shoot any buck that walks by and that carries a looong way. Teaching their kids that same thing, “we don’t have any big bucks around here so shoot whatever has horn.” It all starts with what you believe in and what you want to accomplish as a trophy hunter.
I have been doing a lot of reading about deer and their genetics, food plots, nutrition, etc because some day my brother and i plan on buying at least 200 acres and lay it out to “hold” big deer on the property. I believe that part of the reason why some bucks get so impressive is because of genetics. But, typically they aren’t the ones that do the primary breeding! it’s the 1.5 y/o and 2.5’s. A 140″ 3.5 y/o may breed 2-3 does a fall because they tend to stick to one doe until she is ready. However, some mature bucks don’t even rut at all!! I have read this countless times that they would rather seek heavy cover and abandon all presence until dark so you typically won’t see a mature 4.5+ walking around.
The biggest thing that i think IMHO is nutrition is the key to producing healthy bucks. Planting chicory and beans in the summer, and brassica in the winter. Taking as many does as possible, creating sanctuaries where you can NOT enter under any given circumstance unless trailing a deer but it has to be done at night, hunting only when the wind is right, very light hunting pressure.
This is what i believe are the key factors in Buffalo County. Most of the area is outfitter land and they have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on food plots, the land in general, and creating habitat to hold bigger and more mature deer. It takes one person to start QDM and another to witness the great effects on it to pass it on!!!
Good points ProTour but what about age?? Even if the 1.5 year olds are doing all or 90% of the breeding it doesn’t mean they do not have good genetics?? Just because they are a 6 or even a basket 8 at 1.5 years that don’t mean the won’t be a stud in 3 years if they are allowed to go that long. If you don’t let a buck mature and shoot them of course they won’t get big. That is the ol’ excuse of taking a 1.5 year old and those are the same people that sit and complain that they do not have big bucks in the area. Well of course not if everyone is blasting every 1.5 and 2.5 that walks by. Then next year the only ones that made it are the fawns or a lucky 1.5 year old that again are all small.
As far as the big boys laying low during the rut? Well, I sort of agree with you on that. Your right they grab just a few a year and lock down with them during the rut. But prior to the rut those boys are up on their feet and they are searching all day and night for what does will come into heat first. IMO, I think the real big boys even know what does will come in first and you will find these guys starting to bed on the down wind side of the does even in early October so they can keep track of a does cycle. Remember you don’t see many MONSTER BUCKS during rifle season because they have been down this road before and they know the pressure is on and will lay tight during the day most of the time. They did not get big because they are dumb. Although, I will be the first tell or agree with someone that BIG deer have nine lives much like a cat. Show me a big deer and I bet there has been a few Hunter’s that has missed or messed up on that deer.
With good genetics and proper nutrition many bucks have the ability to get big, but with out AGE the single most and easiest factor a hunter or a group has a direct correlation to and people are still shooting the 1.5 and 2.5 year olds because they don’t grow big deer around there area. I wonder why? They don’t come out of the box with 10 huge points on their head. 
Again, they need all 3 of these traits to grow big and be qaulified as a TRUE TROPHY to make the good book.
I totally agree with Lip!!!! an average genetically gifted buck with average nutrition allowed to get to 4 1/2 years old is a legitimate shooter 90% of the time. A buck with awesome genetics and awesome nutrition is a shooter 0% of the time if it never gets past 1 1/2 years old. thats the facts
to let-em grow you gotta let-em go so SHOOT A DOE!!! 
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the genetics in “their spot” are horrible and this is why they blast anything that moves
Not saying that you or they are wrong in there thinking, but I’m just wondering: If they always shoot spikes and 3’s how do you actually know they have bad genetics up there??? If a deer never has a chance at getting old and maturing, do you really know the potential of a deer?
I see what you’re saying Lip.. But lets say that 50% of 1.5 year olds are 6’s and 8’s. The other 50% are smaller trashy little scrub racks. I would think that those 6 n 8’s have a much better potential of being quality deer at 3.5 and 4.5 than the spikers and mutant racks. My homeland hunting area in central MN, we very rarely see anything under a 6 at 1.5 years old. Up there it’s a very very high % that are spikes and 3’s,, maybe see a fork now n then.
I understand that you should take out those scrubs. Is it likely that a spike will have anything to show at 3.5? Maybe i’ve been going about this the wrong way.
btw: I call these bucks pine cone bucks. Very little cropland to feed from,,what in the world to these things eat? Pine needles and dirt?
I would think that those 6 n 8’s have a much better potential of being quality deer at 3.5 and 4.5 than the spikers and mutant racks.
I believe that they(biologists) have done many studies on bucks that have been spikes and those that have 4-8 points at 1.5 y/o and they say that spikes DO generally become good sized deer at 4.5+ years of age. I can’t recall if it is a lack of nutrition in the summer of their fawn stage or they just don’t anti-up their antler growth until the following years.
I do agree with everyone about age. I believe that passing up 1.5-2.5 y/o bucks regardless of their antler size can potentially make them trophy/book deer. However, that is one reason why i hate gun season MN and WI. Im not saying that to bash anyone that gun hunts only but this is the time of year where the majority of the immature bucks are taken. Even the most hardcore QDH can’t stop others that also hunt the same property from shooting young deer. It just so happens that the gun season is close if not during primetime for buck activity and the grounds they cover to increase. Thats just part of life and hunting but the only way to decrease the harvesting of younger bucks is to teach and educate young/old hunters of the benefits
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I understand that you should take out those scrubs. Is it likely that a spike will have anything to show at 3.5? Maybe i’ve been going about this the wrong way.
Protour is right. just because they are a spike or fork horn @ 1.5. This does not mean they have bad genetics or can’t grow a big rack. It is all stemmed from the nutrition they have received. As fawn they may have lacked the nutrition for various reasons and may even be a fork @ 2.5. But if that deer starts to get the minerals he needs by 3.5 or 4.5 he could be a dandy. There is a chance he might not, but you will never know if you soot him at 1.5. 
Corey Waller hit it right on the head. Even a buck with bad genetics if he gets the other 2 factors of nutrition and age, he would most likely be a shooter for anyone on this site. Hence, who has ever seen those Management bucks they are shooting in Texas and other places??? 140-150” eight pointers. 
Sure not all might get that big, but that is a “bad genetic” buck that is maximizing the other 2 factors. He is getting the food & Nutrition and the Ranches are not shooting these bucks @1.5,2.5 or even 3.5. They are waiting until they are mature and at least 4.5 before taking these bad genetic bucks out of the gene pool or in other words they are letting these bucks maximize their true potential and then culling them from the herd. To me it looks liek htings are working for them. Besides, I would be glad to shoot those bad genetic managment deer @ 4.5 years old. Sure they are managing to the extreme as I peronsally like HUGE 8’s, but the principal is still the same.
Hmmmmm. makes sense. thanks for clearing that up for me.
I’m not trying to bust any chops or anything, but I’m trying to inform people on a passion of mine, something I take very seriously, spend WAY more time on deer and learning about deer then I do anything else. Even fishing. I understand there are different theories, logics and sometimes I become “obsessed” with these topics and for that I apologize as I do not mean to urine anyone off or think there way is wrong. I’m just expressing my passion and my “logic” with a lot of research and time spent behind my thinking.
Case in point for this discussion. Last night I was watching something and Lee Lakosky was talking about a 170″ Giant 3.5 year old that Tiffany had an encounter with down on one of their farms in Iowa. They elected to pass up this “IMMATURE” deer of 3.5 years old. Now that takes bigger cahoney’s then what I got, but they truly believed this deer was 3.5 and wanted to see what it would be @ 4.5 when he would be considered Mature. So they passed that MOSNTER up. Well a year later a friend of theirs harvested that deer off the Lakosky farm.. The guy harvested that deer with a muzzle loader and that 4.5 year old that was given a chance to mature ended up scoring 220 some more odd inches @ 4.5 when he was harvested. 
That is 50 inches in one year. Granted it was a place that has good genetics and proper nutrition with all the food plots they do down there, but it also was given time to AGE and Mature and passed up on @ 1.5, 2.5 and even though very tempting passed up on @3.5 years old and a 170″es.
I’m not saying any of this is easy to do. Everyone has their own opinion as to what a trophy is and I do not judge people that harvest a 1.5 year old. However, I do judge and speak my mind to those people and their groups that year after year shoot 1.5 and 2.5 year olds and complain that they never see or have big deer in their area and blame it solely on bad genetics. One person can not QDM, it needs to be a group effort. Even if you have 200 acres and you manage it. Those deer never stay on just your 200 acres. If those neighbors shoot everything that moves it is still tough. However, by properly managing those 200 acres you will most likely make a difference and start seeing more and more larger bucks. Because of the increased nutrition, the balancing of the herd (buck to doe ratio) and hopefully it catches on and with the talks to your neighbors they start to see the difference and it just snowballs from there in an ideal world.
Just imagine if you had a deer camp of 5 guys. Instead of those 6 guys filling their tag with 4 – 1.5 year olds and 2 – 2.5 year old bucks for one year. Let’s assume they shot the 5 biggest bucks on the property. Ok now lets imagine those guys elect not shoot anything that is 3.5 year olds or better. SO they pass up on those bucks and shoot does. For this story we will say all 5 of those bucks made it to the next year. Now that following hunting season that piece now has 2- 3.5 year olds that are nice bucks and were allowed to get a lil older and become a nice 8 pointer and a small but nice 10 pointer , along with the 4 – 2.5 year old bucks. The group is practicing QDM and they stick to only to harvesting 3.5 year olds. So the group harvests both the 3.5 year old bucks and are amazed at the size of these deer. The remainder 4 guys of the group takes does. That leaves 4 – 2.5 year olds on this farm and a ton 1.5 year olds that were fawns the year prior and we will say 6 – 1.5 year olds to grow and get bigger for next year. So then the following hunting season comes and now this year the farm has 4 – 3.5 year olds on it. You can see the effect of leaving those younger deer go.
Sure the above is a perfect model and I know other hunters shoot deer and winter and nature takes a few, but you can see the impact. I have been part of this exact situation and believe me it works. It only takes a few years and yes people need to get over the ego of not harvesting a buck for a few years, but in the long run it pays off 100 fold. I hunt a few pieces that are just starting to experience these very same rewards right now. Believe me, it is well worth the wait. I have passed up some nice deer the last few years and have not taken a buck with my bow for the last two, but you need to be disciplined and the rewards will come. Last year I passed up a real gnarly main frame 4×4 buck that had 7to 8” brow tines and 13 score able points total . I knew this deer wasn’t mature and pretty sure I knew his Daddy. Who happened to be over a 190” 22 point non typical deer before he broke of some tines before being harvested a few years back. So I elected to pass on this buck, in hopes of getting a shot at him this year or possibly the next. That was the buck with the most points I have ever passed up. It wasn’t the biggest, but the most points. Let me tell you once you start passing bucks up it is very addicting. Now imagine you get to a level like the Lakosky’s and others and you start passing up those 3.5 year olds and let these bucks reach 4.5 and even 5.5 years old. Now you got some Bruisers walking around.
Sorry that I talk to much, 
but man am I pumped up. 
Deer and Deer Hunting is something I can talk about all day. If you think this is bad, Try talking to Brad Juaire and myself at the same time this time of year.
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I totally agree with Lip!!!! an average genetically gifted buck with average nutrition allowed to get to 4 1/2 years old is a legitimate shooter 90% of the time. A buck with awesome genetics and awesome nutrition is a shooter 0% of the time if it never gets past 1 1/2 years old. thats the facts
to let-em grow you gotta let-em go so SHOOT A DOE!!!
Cory you hit the nail smack dab on the head!
I am going to use that line if you do not mind
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What does it take to make an area or county better? I realize there are allot of meat hunter out there. If you want the meat shoot a doe there seem to be plenty of them.(just an idea)
How do you get people to stop shooting the spikes and smaller bucks in the area?
How do you turn the county into a buffalo county? In this day and age
have a neighborhood meeting Has anyone ever tried this?
Ben if you are talking about deer hunting in MN here is my two cents……
IMO the only way MN will ever reach it’s potential to grow more older and bigger bucks like IA & WI is to move the gun season out of the peak rut time. You do not have to take my word for it the record book speak for themself’s. There are two very good reasons to do this……. The number one reason is we would be taking a big step in the right direction to balance the deer heard here in MN. Number two is when you have a balanced deer heard you have more mature bucks plain and simple. Unfortunately there is just no way that we will ever get enough hunters in MN to pass up these young bucks on there own to make a difference IMO. Most of the guys in MN that would like to see the gun season moved out of the prime rut time are bow hunters who would like to hunt deer that are unpressured by gun hunters, allot of these bow hunters also hunt the gun & muzzle loader season as well, this is the group that I fall into. Here is where we run into the conflict, most guys in MN who are gun hunters only do not want to see the gun season moved out of the peak rut time, they feel it is not fair to take that away from them and give it to the bow hunters to have the peak rut time to themselves. So there is the problem/conflict in a nut shell, MN is moving in the right direction to get things changed but we have a long way to go before we will see the number of record book bucks like you do in IA & WI.
I know down here Lip that the guys I know only shoot the nicer racked bucks. Theres guys around that shoot anything that walks because of the old mentality if its got horns shoot it, theres guys like that here too. If people could only be a little more selective about why they should only shoot does if they can’t shoot a nicer buck they’d realize those smaller bucks won’t have a chance to mature to a nice racked size. I firmly believe that the genetics in an area only get better if the bucks that reach maximum size are the ones breeding most of the deer. They don’t breed all the does and a few lesser racked bucks get to breed too but in time the better genetics will start showing up because the bigger racked bucks are breeding most of the does year after year. You put those genes together that have been selected by dominate breeding with good nutritious food and you’ll see better bucks showing up and in just a couple to a few years. Yes you can shoot any deer you want but look at its results, why shoot a small bucks if hes not worthy of the wall and hasen’t done his breeding anyway. If a herds really been thinned out I think eventually better genes will show up again from the selective breeding from letting the bucks grow so selection can be the main process in that area.
I know alot of guys around some of the places I hunt only take shootable bucks and you can tell because theres bigger bucks around every year, you just have to spend time in the timber. I once bowhunted an area and there were a few very nice bucks around but only a few because this area had hunters who during shotgun season shot anything that had horns too and it hurt the herd, tons of does and 1 1/2 year old bucks. In some of the other areas I hunt its billygoat country and even if the hunters shot anything that walked there would still be quite a few nice bucks around, enough to hunt them with a bow anyway because of the lesser pressure because its so hard to walk, so I know it also depends on terrain. Walking rough terrain that have areas of heavy undergrowth are places for big bucks to escape too under heavy hunting pressure and that helps too. If the terrain is fairly accessable then the kill rates go up for the guys that shoot anything. Theres diffrent factors that come into play but if they are left to grow just a few more years and that area has good nutritious food then thier going to get big and rack out nice.
Theres an area just outside of town here that I just got permission to bowhunt on these two properties that are owned by two seperate people. This areas right outside of town and next to an old park that they closed down because it was too big to maintain and all over grown now. This areas always been known for its bigger deer and thats because the deer were in and out of this park half of the time and were never under heavy pressure from many hunters so they had a chance to grow. Everybody in the area sees nice bucks every fall because they were never under pressure by guys who shoot anything that walks so they had a chance to grow to thier full potential every year. I was givin permission to hunt this place because I volunteered to help this older couple in thier 70’s do thier drywall work because of flood damage because they didn’t have insurnce, so them and thier lawyer who owns the neighboring land both gave me permission. Im still reluctant to hunt it because to me thier not real wild deer but I still may, maybe i’ll just get some pictures I don’t know yet. It just goes to show you what selective and low pressure hunting can do for herd. There are a few bowhunters who hunt these properties and I’ve never talked to them but I’d bet they are selective hunters and won’t take any small immature racked bucks unless its thier 12 or 14 year old children and thats ok. Case in point, George the old boy im helping do the drywall in his house knows a guy who owns a big island up river about two miles and its never hunted for deer or tukeys because you can’t wade to it and you can only take a boat to get there. Goerge says the island is lousey with turkeys and theres alot of big deer on that island, why because the one guy who bowhunts it is a selcetive harvet bowhunter and only shoots old bucks that are going down hill or does or a better wallhanger. This guys hunted this Island for 12 years and gets extra culling tags for does and shoots only does. The bucks in that immediate area see thier share of hunters but I know theres alot of selective bowhunters that hunt that area too. You do hear alot of talk about guys taking or only wanting to shoot bigger bucks or they will take a doe, especially at 3-d shoots.
lots of those guys who shoot those smaller bucks have never seen a nice racked buck because if they had they would be more selective on what they shoot. A smaller buck may seem like a nice one to guys who haven’t seen any bigger racked bucks but once they do see a nicer one it changes minds, so let em grow so they can do thier own selective breeding and let nature takes it course, take a doe they taste better anyway. Selective hunting pressure, genetics and nutritous food is a must so bucks can get big.
Steve it ok you can use it I say we should all have it listed in our file.
This is a great read. Yeah age I think is the hardest single thing to achieve.
I have hunted an area with my dad and hunting party since I was 13 an there isn’t a farm field for a couple of miles untill you hit closer to town. Thats were most of the deer are. 
I will say this there isn’t hunting pressure other than us on this public land. The hunting isn’t really great either but those buck get a chance to get big. Those bucks don’t get to 200″ but they are still a nice trophy. As long as they get to grow.
Now I have been bow/riffle hunting on my bro property for 5 years or so now and I have seen probably ten times more deer.(I am not gonna head back up north)I will say it is more exciting when you at least get to see them. I have see the biggest buck of my lifetime so far and I have seen more basket 8’s than I can count. Its just sad to here the neighbor shot another basket 8 this year. I have been pasting on bucks all of this size and last year I pasted on a nice buck bow hunting and again I seen it riffle hunting (passed) so I know it didn’t get shot. Its a funny thing how that deer knew not or at least didn’t go down the valley where the neighbors shoots anything. I find its great how it sat inbetween us till noon when he gets out of his stand. It was they best thing to see that deer come out of the woods were I was and go haulin across a field into a 40 of thick woods were I know that nobody hunts. I got him to stop and I looked back at me laugh at me and run and I know it was the same buck that stopped 20 yards in front of me bow hunting. Maybe I will see this deer this year maybe I won’t but at least I know it made it and somebody might get a chance at a nice trophy.
I would say there is two out of the three but age is the hardest to achieve. There is alot of if its brown its down kinda hunters. Its hard to change someone that drives a ford all there life to drive a chevy. Its hard to drive a point home like QDM if they are still thinking if its brown its down.
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