Crossing over to the (AR) dark side.

I don’t think I can stop myself guys. For months now, I just can’t stop thinking about crossing over to the AR platform side by placing an order for my first AR.

Somebody say something original to talk me out of this.

I already know not to expect a rapid-fire version of a better bolt gun. I think I can handle it. They’re heavy, the stock triggers in general suck and are not adjustable, they can be fussy to feed, there are some wear-prone parts. Even my prairie dog guide warned me that out of 6 AR platforms that guys had brought shooting last summer (up to July), none had survived more than 2 days before they suffered trip-ending failures.

But the dang AR platforms just look like so much fun! Also, you can’t tell me that out in a big p-dog town, the platform won’t be freaking awesome for cleaning up the close-in ones. Gawd, this summer we set up in a cattle enclosure that had been invaded by p-dogs and we were shooting with a .22 RF autoloader and it just wasn’t quite enough. The bolt .223 was fine, but it shot about 80% slower than I wanted to shoot. That’s where the spark came from.

Now don’t get me wrong. I own and will continue to own enough board feet of walnut stocked guns that I can get my fix of burl and bright bluing at regular intervals. There won’t be a big selloff to make room for black guns.

I’m thinking about ordering up a predator/varmint model in .223/5.56, 20 inch barrel, flat top, camo and then going with a reasonable scope say up to 12 power.

Save me! I’m about to cross over to the dark side. Talk me out of it.

Grouse

I never heard of them habitually failing. We should all own one so you’ll get no sympathy from me. I fight myself every week over not getting a SECOND one.

I’m with Suzuki on this one, I can’t wait to get the next one in a new caliber – just for fun. I love plinking with it and have fed all kinds of ammo through it without an issue.

Dave

For me, it’s simply a weight issue. The ones I’ve been around are heavy in comparison to my bolt actions. Of course, they are much funner to shoot though. Not gonna get an argument from me. I’ll have someday. Maybe in the 22-250 caliber….

The fact that you missed the much better title, ‘Crossing over to the D(AR)K Side’ tells me that you’re not ready…

Phil has a point….

You guys are really bad at talking a guy out of more guns. Geeze. What kind of shooting forum is this, anyway?

Phil, good one. I’ll be coming to you as my punchy title consultant from now on.

Kooty, from what I’ve read several companies have tried a .22-250 chambering for the AR and nobody could make it work well. The parent case (.250-3000 Savage) has a (relatively) steep case body angle that from what I’ve read caused feeding issues that nobody was able to solve in a done-deal way. It’s still out there, but I corresponded with two actual owners/builders of .22-250 ARs that both said don’t bother. Shame really.

I don’t know if ARs are really anymore failure prone than bolts, but that question was one I put out there. I’ve personally had two issues in the past 2 years with bolt actions going out of commission during varmint shoots. I had a case head separation last year that left the body of the case stuck in the chamber and this year I had a magazine break. Both times I was able to fix the rifle that night and have it back up and running the next day. I don’t expect the AR would be any different, my plan is always to be ready to fix what I can and to have other rifles for when I can’t.

I have limited expectations of the accuracy, but I can live with 1.5 MOA on a .223 if it comes to that. At least for what I intend to use this rifle for.

And did I mention that the dang things just look like FUN? Pass me another 30 rounder… My father said, “Well you won’t be able to bring that thing varmint shooting, you’ll shoot too much ammo.” To which I replied, “Well, if you think about it dad, we aren’t going varmint shooting to SAVE ammo, really, are we? I mean, the whole point…”

Grouse

I want a light weight AR in .308. I think they call them AR10’s?
DPMS has one that intrigues me called a G2. I want one for deer hunting that is similar to my plinker. Small and light. Problem is I dont NEED it. Hard to justify when my old bolt/scoped
ought-six is in perfect condition.
I despise heavy AR platforms but they would be perfect in the right setting. Especially with a bi-pod. Like for shooting ground rats. GET IT!!!!!
There is definitely something enjoyably visceral about a loud, fast rifle with barely any recoil that goes off 30 times in a row!!!!! I cannot remember one failure in mine. Not a single one and I have shot it over 1000 times for sure.

Not here to help you but then again what are IDO’ers for.

I was laid up a year and half back with nothing to do but surf the internet. Hey did you see HK has a new offering in the AR platform? I’ve never had an AR, maybe I should learn more? Fast forward, I own one, love it, am into customizing, and last night was watching a video on how to get into 3 Gun competitions. Nobody talked me out of it so I’m here to pass along the love.

Here’s a few things I’ve learned:
Reliability: Some brands are better than others. Budget matters. Make sure it’s lubed and use high quality magazines.

Weight: By the time everyone hangs their kitchen sink on them a 7lb rifle is turned into a 10-11lb beast. Not all Mfrs make it heavy out of the gate and you’re responsible to keep it in check from there

Accuracy: Quality barrel will go a long way. Hammer forged or better yet a stainless match grade. You’re on the money for length for prairie dogs

Trigger: Mil-spec sucks for your purpose. Either get an upgrade out of the gate or do it later. This is my next upgrade and probably this month.

Gas system: If Direct Impingement(odds on favorite) you may have to choose between a mid-length and a rifle length. With the long barrel you may have the option to go rifle length. Do it if you can, will help with recoil. Mid is not a bad second choice. Don’t let Carbine length come in to play.

Budget: Don’t cheap out if you want accurate and reliable. There’s some good mid-point options and then top end.

Possible brands:
way too many to count. Here’s two at different price points to get you thinking:

Daniel Defense: Fun video for torture test on youtube, must watch! Check out their Ambush series. Really good barrels, very reliable, and lighter than comparably equipped competitors.
I got a DDM4V5LW from them. Awesome rifle, light, and accurate enough for my purposes. Would get a different barrel for what you want. Needs a new trigger. Maybe a muzzle brake is down the road

JPrifles.com: Competition grade, no upgrades necessary other than adding your choice of scope. Bonus, they’re a local mfr.

Wait, here’s my weak argument. These cost money. Maybe a person shouldn’t spend it on toys?????

Famousgrouse – I just sent you a friend request.

Bottom line get one. They are fun easy to shoot and easy to customize.

Thanks for the input and ideas from the guys who have been there.

This is going to be a varmint rifle mainly, I might take it on the odd coyote stand, but my main rifle for coyotes is a shotgun. I like up close and personal and also I tend to miss a little less with a 3 inch blast of BBs. I just don’t have the wide open spaces shots that Kooty gets.

I don’t plan on hanging a lot of schnick-schnock on this rifle and going all TactiCool with spinning pimp daddy hubcaps. The most radical accessory I’ll be adding is a scope.

I’m going with a factory build for sure and a main line OEM maker. I’m not really into DIY builds, but it sounds like I’ll be adding a custom trigger as even the decent factory builds often come with a mil-spec trigger that is marginal at best.

Will do a little shopping tomorrow after work if I can skive off early.

Grouse

Have you considered one in a 204 caliber?

My 223 Rock River Coyote Special will keep up accuracy wise out to 300 yards with any of my other .223 and better then some. It will hold sub MOA all day long at a hundred yards as fast as you can pull the trigger and get back on target.
I wanted to see how well it handled getting hot I ran two 20 rounds clips as fast as I could and be accurate at hundred yards every shot was inside the 1 inch bullseye. Would I buy another Rock River in a heart beat.

kooty wrote:

Have you considered one in a 204 caliber?

Not really, no. Since I’ve got thousands and thousands of .223 cases and I buy components like bullets and primers in bulk for .223, I couldn’t see adding the complicating factor of another caliber.

Grouse

Love my AR.

Mine is made up of a spikes tacticle lower assembly with the trigger upgrade from factory and a DPMS bull barrel 20″ the gun shoots great and holds a good group. I just pinned the 2 haves together and started shooting.

Only real thing to be cautious about would be the 556-223 barrel. I am under the understanding that the 556 will also shoot the 223 but not the other way around. with that said I think rockriver has a 223 barrel that will shoot 556

Figured that was the case. Tough to beat the .223 price per round either.

I am half heartily looking myself. most likely a 223 will suite my P/dogs needs as well as plinking. Over the last year, nearly every military man/woman I have asked opinions of have all stated DPMS as being the most reliable AR they shot.
However, as I have been to all these trade shows over the last 2 months, my eyes have been opened up to just how many manufactures are out there. Its crazy to see 50 – 75 manufactures that get no love from the store buyers, though they may have a better quality/value priced product. I know, stores can’t carry everyone of them, but wow, is there ever a lot to choose from. I’ll be at the Shot Show in January. Can only imagine how many I will get to look at there

Randy, not surprising about DPMS and that fits the advice I’ve heard a lot. For the guy who doesn’t want to DIY it and just wants an out of box shooter, I’ve been told to go with an established OEM maker like RRA, DPMS, Mossberg, Remington, etc. Companies who are actually making their own parts and guns and have established supply chains for what they are outsourcing.

I’m not into the tinkering and gadgetizing aspect of ARs. I just want a reliable autoloading varmint rifle. I also have to admit the high-cap mags are attractive because loading 5 at a time in the middle of a dog town gets to be a drag.

5.56 and .223 are, for all practical purposes, interchangeable. There are some minor differences that are too detailed to go into here, but in the modern day most guns have been engineered for both since there is every chance the ammo will get interchanged regardless.

Grouse

Sent you a PM Grouse. Just bought another lower my self to build a new deer rifle. Check out Element Arms in Becker MN. I know the owners pretty well. They have everything you can think of and will beat about everyone on prices.

Update. I’ve finally navigated the paperwork hurdles, so now I’m just waiting on my “Permit to Purchase” and then I can order. And yes, you need a PTP in MN for ARs as well as handguns. It took me a while to find the fine print, basically as of a few years ago scary black guns (I think they actually said semi-automatic military-style guns with blah, blah, blah) were added.

In the meantime, I ordered up a decent piece of Nikon glass as for the first time in a long while, I’m out of scopes. Also ordered up a mount, so I’m a little ahead of the game. I’m also going to order up a few 20 round mags, I don’t think the 30 is for me as I don’t want that much weight or length extending out the bottom. Thoughts on this anyone?

Started fooling around with some test batches of “standard” AR reloads as well, but I’ll have to get production spooled up so I have some test ammo ready. I’m going with 50-60 grain loads and I’m trying all my standard varmint bullets first like the Z-max, V-max and Varmageddon because I would LOVE to be able to dial in on a bullet that I’m already buying by the 1000s.

I’m crossing over to the d(AR)k side (with thanks to Phil). Let’s see if these babies are ticket or what.

Grouse

I see no problem with your magazine decision. Like you said they are shorter so the gun would be slightly less cumbersome. I have a 20, a 5 and a bunch of 30’s.

A year ago I purchased a S&W M&P SPORT model in .556. I Paid $599 I believe. On a budget I think its the #1 AR available. It has a Melonite Barrel to keep cost down, yet Melonite is supposedly more accurate than chrome lined (not that I will ever be able to tell the difference) and S&W has 1 million rounds through a test model and said its showing zero issues with the melonite treatment of the barrel. If your interested check youtube for “Nutnfancy” videos about this gun, he has vast shooting experience and speaks highly of it.

The M&P sport also has a 1:8 twist vs the standard 1:9, thus it is supposed to shoot heavier bullet grains more accurately. (so I have read on the Net, no testing done by me)

Well, finally got the permit in the mail and now the best price dealer is out of stock on the version I want. Being it’s so close to deer season and I won’t have time for a lot of fooling around with new guns, I’m going to wait until they have them back in stock. I won’t have time to mess with a new rifle anyway and it’ll be killing me to have it and NOT shoot it.

Triplea, I’m just a varmint shooter, so I tend to only shoot between 50-60 grains, so 1:9 is about right for me. I have better wind-bucking and long range rifles, so I’m not going to try to make the .223 into something it’s not. At the end of the day, I have multiple .22-250s and a .243 with a really good 70 grain load, so there’s not much incentive for me to take a lot of low-percentage potshots with a .223 when it’s windy, long distances, etc.

But with that said, the .223 is just superb for the closer-in stuff. I was just having a ton of fun last summer when we got into a dog town where there were lots of 300 yard shots. Nice light recoil, don’t lose the dog in the scope after each shot, lots of shots before the barrel heats up too much, etc. Just a joy when the conditions are right.

Grouse

Hey Grouse, you’re killing me on two parts.

1. Sooo, after all your research what did you decide on?
2. After initially reading this thread I got the bug to do some more customizing on mine. I love my new trigger:) My checkbook hates my new trigger:(

Triplea – I’ve read some of the same things you have on twist rates.

Seems most barrels are either 1 in 7 or 1 in 9 twist. 1 in 7 so they can stabilize heavier bullets like 70 grains. 1 in 9 twist so they’re better at the 40 grain loads typically used for varmints. Of course 1 in 8 is the happy medium just doesn’t seem as popular.

I’m going with a Mossberg MMR Hunter and specifically I want the Mossy Oak Brush camo version.

As far as a hunting-tuned AR, the MMR seems to me to sit in a good place as far as overall features vs price. It has a 20 inch barrel, which to me is an absolute necessity, and no pre-installed schnick-schnock that will never get used and just get in the way like front sights, dust covers, etc.

The reviews on the MMR mainly seem to say it has good accuracy potential and functions well. Nobody seems to miss the two AR standards that have been deleted from the MMR, the dust cover and the forward assist.

Like all base model ARs with a mil-spec trigger, every MMR owner says the same thing: replace the trigger with an aftermarket drop-in. The mil-spec trigger is tough and rough, so accuracy potential is limited out of box.

Seems like a good place to start to me considering I want to keep this little adventure under $1200 including optics. I’m not interesting in kit builds or scratch builds, I have other rifle projects on the go that need to get done before I start toying with this route.

Also, I’m not even sure at the end of the day that I’ll like the platform. Could be that I’m in love with the idea of fast follow ups in the middle of a big dog town, but if the rifle can’t cut the mustard on the accuracy side, you’ll be seeing in a classifieds ad near you within a year.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

…you’ll be seeing in a classifieds ad near you within a year.

I’ll keep my eyes peeled.

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>TheFamousGrouse wrote:</div>
…you’ll be seeing in a classifieds ad near you at significant markup, of course, within a year.

I’ll keep my eyes peeled.

There, I did a little edit just for you Ralph. Can’t give away too many deals.

Grouse

For the 55 grainers what has worked very well in any of my 223`s is Ramshot TAC. Much better then Varget, Benchmark, or H335 at least for me. Give it a shot…That’s a joke son.