coolers and physics

Thats good to know captain. Things sure are spendy though. Videos online of them showed to be quite effective.

If you just drink your beer warm then nobody has to worry about nothing. And when you keep your beer warm less people will ask for 1. Easy physics there

Bearcat89 wrote:

If you just drink your beer warm then nobody has to worry about nothing. And when you keep your beer warm less people will ask for 1. Easy physics there

If you drink Hamm’s you only have to worry about BK and hipsters asking for one.

Huntindave wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>1hl&sinker wrote:</div>
Ice can not be frozen below waters freeze point of 32 degrees.

That is incorrect:
Inna Vishik, P.h.D. Applied Physics & Physics, Stanford University (2013)
Updated Apr 17 2015 · Author has 970 answers and 6.7m answer views
Frozen water will eventually equilibrate with the temperature of its environment which may well be below 0ºC.

edit; A prime naturally occurring example would be the earths polar caps where the ice temperature is commonly -15 to -20 Celsius. (5 to -4 degrees Fahrenheit)

Thankyou for the corection. Dang I would have done a lot better in school if you all were around.

Huntindave wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>1hl&sinker wrote:</div>
Ice can not be frozen below waters freeze point of 32 degrees.

That is incorrect:
Inna Vishik, P.h.D. Applied Physics & Physics, Stanford University (2013)
Updated Apr 17 2015 · Author has 970 answers and 6.7m answer views
Frozen water will eventually equilibrate with the temperature of its environment which may well be below 0ºC.

edit; A prime naturally occurring example would be the earths polar caps where the ice temperature is commonly -15 to -20 Celsius. (5 to -4 degrees Fahrenheit)

Isn’t that because the polar ice caps have salt in the water?

“isn’t that because the polar ice caps have salt in the water?”

No. Take pure water. It freezes at 32 degrees. It changes phase from liquid to solid at 32 degrees. If it gets colder than that, it’s still solid, it’s still ice. You could cool a piece of ice down to absolute zero if you had the right equipment. The steel in your engine block “freezes” at approximately 1400 degrees. Next January on a cold dark morning that steel might measure -20 degrees.

S.R.

Huntindave wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Randy Wieland wrote:</div>
Yes it matters. Dump warm soda, say 85 degrees with a bag of ice in a cooler and the ice melts sure fast. Pre-chill your soda to 40 degrees and you ice lasts much longer.

Randy, you are missing the point of this discussion.

I did specify the temps were the same for both cooling agents, water or a variation of water or even a rock, all cooled to zero degrees.

Not figuring in any other variables such as temp of any added food.

No, not really. If anything I over simplified my statement too much.

I didnt’ read through all the posts, so sorry if this is repeated

First applied is Newton’s law of cooling
T(t) = Ts + (T0 – Ts ) e(-kt)

T(t) = temperature of an object at a certain time (Kelvin, K)

t = time (s)

Ts = temperature of the surroundings (Kelvin, K)

T0 = starting temperature of the object (Kelvin, K)

k = a cooling constant, specific to the object (1/s)

However, the calculation becomes extremely complex as you add in all the variables that need to be considered.

Surrounding temperature – Varies. Because each type of cooler will have a different R value for heat loss or transfer, the surrounding environment will constantly change.

How many times will the cooler be opened, and have a complete change of air mass?

How much volume or mass is each item and many items within the formula? Air : Ice: Soda: meat: …..

q = hc A dT

As a example, I haul 52Qt Lit Coolers layers in ice and Elk steaks from Colorado to WI. The packaged meat is about 36-38 degrees and the ice is sub-32 degrees. After 16 hours, most of the ice is melted and I have an average temp of about 40 degrees in the cooler with never opening it in that 16 hour time span.

I do the exact same with dry ice and the meat is nearly all frozen throughout after the 16 hours.

Then, we have one cooler that didn’t get layered. 1 layer of dry ice on the bottom and 1 at the top with all the elk steaks packed tight to each other. The top and bottom is nearly froze and the middle of the cluster is almost 50 degrees after 16 hours……

Oh, forgot my daughter added soda to one of the coolers and opened it at each of the 4 truck stops to grab one out. Even with the dry ice in there, that cooler average about 40 degrees after 16 hours because she exchanged part of the environment equation.

So, as I stated, IT MATTERS

BTW, You also need to determine if you created a vacuum with the seal on the cooler as you chill the internal environment. That adds even more complexity to the equation as you then need to calculate for Assisted, Neutral, Forced Convective Transfer.
Example for this is a heated garage in the middle of winter.
Everything in the garage is 50 degrees, including the objects, wall and ceiling surfaces, car, air mass….. Then you open and close the door and the air is exchanged with -19 degree air. Collectively, all the objects in the garage increase or transfers heat to the air mass and you reduce the objects temperature but increase the air temp. If you have a fan blowing, the transfer happen much faster and more uniform. If it is a Neutral exchange, it is more uneven and a slower process.

Randy Wieland wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Huntindave wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Randy Wieland wrote:</div>
Yes it matters. Dump warm soda, say 85 degrees with a bag of ice in a cooler and the ice melts sure fast. Pre-chill your soda to 40 degrees and you ice lasts much longer.

Randy, you are missing the point of this discussion.

I did specify the temps were the same for both cooling agents, water or a variation of water or even a rock, all cooled to zero degrees.

Not figuring in any other variables such as temp of any added food.

No, not really. If anything I over simplified my statement too much.

I didnt’ read through all the posts, so sorry if this is repeated

First applied is Newton’s law of cooling
T(t) = Ts + (T0 – Ts ) e(-kt)

T(t) = temperature of an object at a certain time (Kelvin, K)

t = time (s)

Ts = temperature of the surroundings (Kelvin, K)

T0 = starting temperature of the object (Kelvin, K)

k = a cooling constant, specific to the object (1/s)

However, the calculation becomes extremely complex as you add in all the variables that need to be considered.

Surrounding temperature – Varies. Because each type of cooler will have a different R value for heat loss or transfer, the surrounding environment will constantly change.

How many times will the cooler be opened, and have a complete change of air mass?

How much volume or mass is each item and many items within the formula? Air : Ice: Soda: meat: …..

q = hc A dT

As a example, I haul 52Qt Lit Coolers layers in ice and Elk steaks from Colorado to WI. The packaged meat is about 36-38 degrees and the ice is sub-32 degrees. After 16 hours, most of the ice is melted and I have an average temp of about 40 degrees in the cooler with never opening it in that 16 hour time span.

I do the exact same with dry ice and the meat is nearly all frozen throughout after the 16 hours.

Then, we have one cooler that didn’t get layered. 1 layer of dry ice on the bottom and 1 at the top with all the elk steaks packed tight to each other. The top and bottom is nearly froze and the middle of the cluster is almost 50 degrees after 16 hours……

Oh, forgot my daughter added soda to one of the coolers and opened it at each of the 4 truck stops to grab one out. Even with the dry ice in there, that cooler average about 40 degrees after 16 hours because she exchanged part of the environment equation.

So, as I stated, IT MATTERS

BTW, You also need to determine if you created a vacuum with the seal on the cooler as you chill the internal environment. That adds even more complexity to the equation as you then need to calculate for Assisted, Neutral, Forced Convective Transfer.
Example for this is a heated garage in the middle of winter.
Everything in the garage is 50 degrees, including the objects, wall and ceiling surfaces, car, air mass….. Then you open and close the door and the air is exchanged with -19 degree air. Collectively, all the objects in the garage increase or transfers heat to the air mass and you reduce the objects temperature but increase the air temp. If you have a fan blowing, the transfer happen much faster and more uniform. If it is a Neutral exchange, it is more uneven and a slower process.

I think I’m getting flashbacks from 1991. If you remember we had a big Halloween snow storm that year that dumped 24+ inches of snow. Coincidently, we a Heat Transfer problem on a final that went something like this:

Place 24″ of snow on the sidewalk and calculate how long it takes the snow to melt. If not all the snow melts determine the depth of the remaining snow. State all assumptions.

At any rate… Don’t forget your transient heat transfer principles when you’re figuring out how much ice to put in your cooler.

Fu@# this math physics crap, I’m going to buy a $400 cooler just to keep my sanity now

For sale slightly used yeti 45, only chilled Corona.
Easy to use, just add frozen water.
$400
Contact EPG.

For sale slightly used yeti 45, only chilled Corona.
Easy to use, just add frozen water.
$400
Contact EPG.
Free cabin rental with purchase.

nhamm wrote:

Fu@# this math physics crap, I’m going to buy a $400 cooler just to keep my sanity now

But will you add sawdust to your ice bottle or not?

Thank god for google…we all be geniuses.

Eelpoutguy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Huntindave wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>1hl&sinker wrote:</div>
Ice can not be frozen below waters freeze point of 32 degrees.

That is incorrect:
Inna Vishik, P.h.D. Applied Physics & Physics, Stanford University (2013)
Updated Apr 17 2015 · Author has 970 answers and 6.7m answer views
Frozen water will eventually equilibrate with the temperature of its environment which may well be below 0ºC.

edit; A prime naturally occurring example would be the earths polar caps where the ice temperature is commonly -15 to -20 Celsius. (5 to -4 degrees Fahrenheit)

Isn’t that because the polar ice caps have salt in the water?

Bingo! See my post:

http://www.in-depthoutdoors.com/community/forums/topic/cooler-hype/page/3/

Apparently my link didn’t work, but page 3 of the Cooler-Hype thread I talk about using salt ice. Works great!

Here is some simple physics:
Coolers tend to fly out of trailered boats when empty so get some weight in there!

Coolers work best when full so buy more beer!-or just start with perishables and if you have space fill it up with non-perishables.

These coolers that don’t break do not appeal to me, coolers are the one thing I don’t break.