Colorado has a proposition on the ballot to reintroduce gray wolves in national forest areas. The arguments for this are that an apex predator like wolves would help manage deer and elk populations. My biggest concern regarding this proposition is how the populations of wolves would be controlled – they are federally protected. I’ve heard from many friends in MN that gray wolves have completely overrun their hunting lands in the northern part of the state. What effects have you all heard/seen regarding the resurgence of wolves in MN?
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Colorado Proposition to Reintroduce Gray Wolves – Minnesota Observations
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October 15, 2020 at 11:08 am #1979845
If you want to control your Deer & Elk sell more hunting license.
Once you start with the Wolves there will be no controlling them.
jwellsyPosts: 1591October 15, 2020 at 11:14 am #1979848In the 70’s Illinois released 200 mating pairs of coyotes to ‘maintain a healthy balance’. Now, there’s a year round open hunting season on them as they decimate the upland game populations.
October 15, 2020 at 11:26 am #1979852They are a problem here even if some people don’t want to talk about it. Like Dutch said there is no controlling them unless they drop the protection and we can start dropping a few of them!
October 15, 2020 at 11:33 am #1979860You can control them. Just like any other game, fish, or predator. Its actually not that difficult because for a couple years we did just exactly that. When the state was allowed to take it over, they implemented a quota-based lottery hunting and trapping season and it was very effective. The state is capable of handling them and it generates revenue from license sales as well. I can’t say if they have “over run” any specific area, but their population is definitely higher than the target at this point. I do believe they belong in the ecosystem because they often target weak, old, or injured prey which helps the deer/elk/moose population in the end and apex predators are needed.
The reason people are opposed to it is because they see them as a “trophy hunt” which is pure nonsense. Lots of hunters and anglers target their quarry for the recreation status of an animal or fish. Its not just about being a meat hunter. We openly allow the harvest of other predators like coyotes, fox, bobcats, etc and I’m pretty sure no one is after them to consume them.
October 15, 2020 at 11:34 am #1979861Im all for wolves in the wild. They do belong there.
What I don’t agree with is the federal protection they have that keeps the states from controlling the populations.
If they agreed to hunting and trapping seasons for population control I’d have no problem with it.
If they don’t, you’ll have the same problem in Colorado that we have here in MN.October 15, 2020 at 11:37 am #1979862Im all for wolves in the wild. They do belong there.
What I don’t agree with is the federal protection they have that keeps the states from controlling the populations.
If they agreed to hunting and trapping seasons for population control I’d have no problem with it.
If they don’t, you’ll have the same problem in Colorado that we have here in MN.Exactly Grubson, well played.
Its not like we’re going to just eradicate them from the landscape again if there was a limited season. Packs occupy enormous ranges and even if you were able to snag a lottery drawn hunting tag the chances of even seeing one is very remote. The success rate when we did have a season was under 5%.
ClownColorInactiveThe Back 40Posts: 1955October 15, 2020 at 11:45 am #1979864Vote no!
The problem is they’ll never control on federal lands properly due to much public influence. AND when they finally do decide to control it, they’ll hire sharp shooters, paid with tax dollars and not revenue generated licenses, to come out and thin the herd…this of course would also happen too late.
…but yes, wolves are great to see in the wild, when controlled properly.
October 15, 2020 at 12:46 pm #1979884Vote NO! The wolves will find their way one way or another (from what I hear, some already have). You don’t need to pay for them to be introduced then left to run uncontrolled.
Yes they have their place in an ecosystem, but the Federales won’t allow them to be controlled, so the ecosystem will become unbalanced and the ungulate populations will plummet.
October 15, 2020 at 12:51 pm #1979887If you want to control your Deer & Elk sell more hunting license.
Once you start with the Wolves there will be no controlling them.
x2, don’t introduce something that you legally can’t control if it gets out of hand.
October 15, 2020 at 2:41 pm #1979935The only control right now is federal.
From a hunting perspective there seems to be an ebb and flow. The area I’m familiar with has likely had wolves since the mid to late 1980s. There does appear to be a bit of a dance regarding wolves/deer as they move in or out of an area. If you were to ask me the single biggest impact on deer numbers my answer without hesitation would be winter severity.
It’s fair to say hunting pressure, predators & winters all play a roll regarding the deer herd in northern MN.
BeastPosts: 1143October 15, 2020 at 9:23 pm #1980017There’s a reason that our great grandfathers and grandfathers killed them to begin with. only place I know of were wolves work is Yellowstone. and there’s no area that any hunting is allowed and it’s a vast area.
October 15, 2020 at 9:32 pm #1980019There’s a reason that our great grandfathers and grandfathers killed them to begin with. only place I know of were wolves work is Yellowstone. and there’s no area that any hunting is allowed and it’s a vast area.
You can find many instances where the packs of Yellowstone cross into the cattle country and kill cattle. There is nowhere that they can be controlled without hunting seasons. Well, maybe a zoo.
joneserInactivePosts: 172October 15, 2020 at 10:56 pm #1980036Vote No.
The notion that wolves kill only the old, sick, and dying is false. They kill a ton of fawns. They’re also opportunistic. When they’re able to kill a lot, they will. They’re not any different than dogs in that they like to play, and this means they’ll kill for sport, not just for survival. When the snow is deep, deer are yarded up, or the snow is crusted over, wolves will run down and kill deer just for fun without even eating them before moving onto the next one.
Winter severity and increased wolf kills go hand in hand since winter severity is largely determined by snow depth. Winters that would be tough on wildlife as it is are compounded by wolves because those are the years they’re able to kill indiscriminately.
There are upsides to wolves. People tend to focus on their impact to big game but I see the benefits happening elsewhere. Wolves are a fairly low density large predator that keeps other smaller predators in check. Wolves will basically eradicate the coyote population within their range. Coyotes can kill a lot of fawns too so by having a larger low density predator it could help deer production in some areas, in some years. Bobcats, fishers, raccoons, foxes, skunks, possibly bear (cubs) wolves will kill or chase off when they encounter. I will say that with coyotes gone I see much more fox in the wolf range part of the state than in the coyote range, where you’ll rarely see a fox.
Overall they’re not worth it. The granola hipster tree hugger crowd will fight a wolf season once they become established and you’ll lose control. A wolf hunt is very much so a trophy hunt. I don’t know what else you’d call a season where people get a single tag by lottery and the successful hunters mount the animals they harvest or turn them into rugs without any intention to eat them. How do you think the public views it?
In the end all you have is the three-S’es.
Shoot
Shovel
Shut-upThere are a lot of wolves killed every year in wolf country….season or no season. Just make sure you can clearly make out they’re not wearing a radio collar when you have them in the scope before pulling the trigger.
bigpikePosts: 6259October 16, 2020 at 7:38 am #1980061The federal land by me has introduced Wolves. Not very many deer.
Before wolves it was great deer hunting……
Then factor in cattle kills, bear dog kills, hunting dog kills.
Wolves are great at one thing. KillsOctober 16, 2020 at 8:01 am #1980070How do you think the public views it?
Most of the public that is against it has a negative view of trophy hunts. But what they don’t understand is that a lot of other types of hunting is the exact same thing. Why are they against hunting a wolf for their pelt or for recreation, but they’re against hunting a coyote for the same reason? Or a lottery drawn mountain lion? Heck, there’s plenty of deer hunters that are only after Mr Big and they could care less about the venison they get from it. I don’t know if the public opinion against a wolf hunt is aware of this or they just don’t care. When I hear people say “Well why target something if you can’t eat it?” I just shake my head. Trapping is actually the most effective way to control them, not hunting. When we had a limited lottery season, the success rate was about twice as much as the hunters.
The fact that they are still on the endangered species list at this point is nothing but nonsense. The scientific evidence has overwhelmingly shown they can be removed from federal protection in the Great Lakes region. Some liberal judge thinks without any science background or education thinks they need to “regain control of their historic range” before they get removed. Gimme a break, they’re never going to re-establish to that point again.
October 16, 2020 at 10:21 am #1980101I don’t know Jonser we hunt near Sandstone and can hear both wolf packs howling and coyote packs yipping at night. Not saying there hanging out together of course but within a mile of each other or less.
October 16, 2020 at 10:26 am #1980102People in rural MN and WI have had to take wolf mgt into their own hands. The government wont help and having them around here uncontrolled is unacceptable. They seem to be under control by my cabin now thanks to local management…….
October 16, 2020 at 10:37 am #1980103Here’s the MN DNR Wolf info, where you will find the range hasn’t changed (despite plenty of evidence to the contrary) and the population fluctuates…there is also a survey on there that I would recommend anyone interested take, it does require you to register.
https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/wolves/2017/survey-wolf.pdf
October 16, 2020 at 1:05 pm #1980141I don’t know Jonser we hunt near Sandstone and can hear both wolf packs howling and coyote packs yipping at night. Not saying there hanging out together of course but within a mile of each other or less.
Being NW of Moose Lake I’ve seen similar. I tend to get a little bit of everything on the trail cams. I’ve even had wolf, coyote and fox on the same camera. Additional bears, skunks, raccoons, an occasional bobcat, fishers and a rare badger or two. There are a host of predators present. I have no doubt animal behaviors will change based on what’s around and they will find their own niche based on the habitat available.
Having hunted the area since 1980 the deer population has gone up and down multiple times over the years. It’s never been a given nor “Gloom and Doom” before or after wolf establishment. My hope is some predators and occasional tough winters keeps CWD at bay. Wolves on the landscape hasn’t stopped me from hunting. Widespread CWD might.
jwellsyPosts: 1591October 16, 2020 at 1:20 pm #1980144tegg, are saying that wolves may help fight CWD? That’s an interesting thought.
October 16, 2020 at 3:26 pm #1980175Ask almost any landowner in Northern Wisconsin about wolves and you will receive big fat—KILL THEM ANY WAY POSSIBLE!!!!
October 16, 2020 at 4:38 pm #1980189Having hunted the area since 1980 the deer population has gone up and down multiple times over the years. It’s never been a given nor “Gloom and Doom” before or after wolf establishment.
I’ve heard a different story for people north of Duluth.
joneserInactivePosts: 172October 17, 2020 at 12:28 am #1980249Most of the public that is against it has a negative view of trophy hunts. But what they don’t understand is that a lot of other types of hunting is the exact same thing. Why are they against hunting a wolf for their pelt or for recreation, but they’re against hunting a coyote for the same reason? Or a lottery drawn mountain lion? Heck, there’s plenty of deer hunters that are only after Mr Big and they could care less about the venison they get from it. I don’t know if the public opinion against a wolf hunt is aware of this or they just don’t care. When I hear people say “Well why target something if you can’t eat it?” I just shake my head. Trapping is actually the most effective way to control them, not hunting. When we had a limited lottery season, the success rate was about twice as much as the hunters.
The fact that they are still on the endangered species list at this point is nothing but nonsense. The scientific evidence has overwhelmingly shown they can be removed from federal protection in the Great Lakes region. Some liberal judge thinks without any science background or education thinks they need to “regain control of their historic range” before they get removed. Gimme a break, they’re never going to re-establish to that point again.
I’m not crazy about trophy hunting either to be honest. I have no problem with guys targeting trophy class specimens when they’re hunting since they still eat the meat. Hunting only for a trophy as in having a timed feeder go off and then selecting which buck you shoot and being charged by what it scores? To me that seems a little messed up and isn’t why I hunt, but to each their own. Pulling a trigger on a pneumatic tool that shoots a rod into a cow’s skill to dispatch it also seems a little messed up when you stop and think about it, but I’m not some fairy animal rights activist and enjoy a good steak so it’s not like I care…I’m all for it.
I’m just pointing out how the public, especially in a state as increasingly hipster/hippie as CO are going to view it.
People eat Mountain lion because it’s delicious. Plus the public fears them. They don’t want to see them.
The public doesn’t like coyotes being killed indiscriminately and largely doesn’t know about it. They’ll occasionally stop a coyote tournament but 99.99% of the general public has no idea the federal government employs full time coyote terminators. Guys that are paid a living to do nothing but kill as many coyotes as they can whether it’s trapping, throwing some meat full of strychnine in dens, or shooting them with 10ga loaded with buck shot from helicopters or planes. The public doesn’t know about this and we should keep it this way.
Here’s the thing with wolves—people like them. I get it. They’re symbols of wilderness. They’re a majestic looking animal, especially when compared to goofy looking bears that like to eat garbage. If wolves get reintroduced to a state like CO, similar to MN in that you essentially have one liberal leaning metropolis that calls most of the shots, there is no friggin’ way the sportsmen of that state will ever get a sniff at there being a wolf season.
Why?
Keep in mind MN never lost wolves. Also keep in mind the state was paying a bounty to kill them until almost 1980 if I remember right. MN can’t beat the liberals on getting the great lakes population delisted from threatened in order to take control from the feds and implement a season.
How in the hell is Colorado ever going to get a season? Denver is arguably more liberal than Minneapolis. Plus you’re starting from zero. So it’s going to take time to grow the population to be big enough to warrant a hunt. By the time that happens there’s going to be so many stories about how a wolf sighting was epicly life-changing told around campfires by dudes taking bong rips and wearing truck stop t-shirts with wolves on them that they’re going to scream bloody murder when a wolf season is ever even mentioned. Unless you’re in a state that is solidly red and pro ranching like MT, ID, and WY don’t ever contemplate supporting bringing in wolves.
I agree on the listing of wolves being a joke. Wolves have never been even close to endangered and they highlight the worst perversion of the endangered species act. Every last wolf in the lower 48 could be snuffed out tomorrow and wolved still wouldn’t be endangered. There’s this other country called “Canada” that along with Alaska have wolves everywhere. These are the same animal as the ones in the great lakes. Many wolves living along the MN border will even cross it and just like that they go from being a protected animal to being one a non-canadian non-resident can purchase multiple tags over the counter for.
The intent of the endangered species act is to stop at risk species from going extinct. Extinct means there aren’t anymore of that species left, anywhere. The act was never intended to protect a species that might not being doing as well as they once were on the island of Manhattan from no longer existing there, but there being millions of them elsewhere. What they’re doing with wolves would be like if all the squirrels in a single city park (Loring Park for this example) were killed off except for two and then making a declaration that “the Loring Park Squirrel is Endangered,” and then spending boatloads of money on monitoring them, trying to reintroduce other squirrels from the same genetic strain, and only looking at what’s happening with the Loring Park squirrel population…without ever taking a step back and seeing that there are shitloads of squirrels everywhere else. It’s a joke. It’s why some very clearly worded legislation needs to be passed redefining what “extinct” means in the act otherwise it needs to be done with altogether because News Flash—there’s tons of wolves living in the great lakes region. If they all died tomorrow in MN, WI, MI there’d still be a robust population of great lakes wolves. All you’d have to do is drive into Canada a little ways to realize this. If a wolf were to meander into Illinois, does that state now have a population that needs protection? Currently under the act it most likely would have that declared.
As far as my comment on coyotes maybe I spoke too strongly by saying wolves basically eradicate them across their range. I never meant to suggest there still aren’t coyotes living inside wolf territory but my understanding is that wolves being territorial don’t like them since they’re another smaller yet similar dog. I’ve certainly seen that in the area North of Mille Lacs, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be coyotes thriving in other parts of wolf country for all I know. So I’ll retract that statement since it sounds like quite a few guys are seeing and saying otherwise.
October 17, 2020 at 12:01 pm #1980336The problem I see with a yes/no vote on the introduction of wolves is not the wolves themselves. Colorado will almost certainly end up with wolves from neighboring states that have growing populations.
The more important issue is what is the management plan and how will the state respond to control numbers once areas reach a stated target population in a given geographical unit?
People are always blaming the MN DNR for what they see as a lack of wolf management here. In fact, the MN DNR had a good plan and was using it, we have just been stopped from managing wolves by a Federal court (of course) located back east.
As a hunter, outdoors person, and hunting property owner, I don’t have an issue with wolves and I don’t want them wiped out. What I DO want is for them to be managed to a plan just like every OTHER species of wildlife in this state. Currently, MN literally has more say-so over the management of crows than we do wolves. That’s crazy.
Colorado is going to have wolves, regardless of the outcome of this vote. To me the key to how hunters and ranchers will be impacted by this reality is in the management plan. Or lack thereof.
Grouse
October 17, 2020 at 12:15 pm #1980338tegg, are saying that wolves may help fight CWD? That’s an interesting thought.
If you look at the two CWD zones in MN (SE and near Crow Wing Co.) the current DNR management classification is for unlimited antlerless. With the exception of the metro they are not allowing that anywhere else in the state. I interpret that as a management strategy to drastically reduce the size of the deer herd in those areas. Whether it’s an effective strategy to slow the spread of CWD remains to be seen. Maybe you could accomplish the same thing in NE MN through normal antlerless harvest combined with predation and variable winter kill without the drastic measures. Of course neither is popular with hunters. If given a choice I’d rather not see the spread of the disease.
I’ve heard a different story for people north of Duluth.
I do recognize not all permit areas within zone 1 are created equal. For as long as I can remember there have been permit areas in the arrowhead that have been bucks only which is a sign the DNR is limiting harvest to allow herd growth. If you look historically pre logging there were no deer in the NE boreal forest zone. It’s a tough place for deer to live and the further north and east you go the tougher it gets. Unlike further south and west there’s virtually no agricultural. Within the last 30 yrs there have been two periods of low deer harvest (96-98 and 14-15). These were periods of severe winters and NE zones would have been hit the hardest. The period between 03-07 were periods of record harvests. Have people seen a similar trend over that period in zone 1 or has it been continually sparse hunting for the last 30-40 yrs? All of those periods would have fallen within wolf establishment. Another factor to consider is the DNR opens up more antlerless harvest when the population is increasing. If it is proceeded with a severe winter like 13-14 the bottom can drop out as we saw. I have no doubt it can take some time for some of the NE zones to recover.
October 17, 2020 at 12:16 pm #1980339As a hunter, outdoors person, and hunting property owner, I don’t have an issue with wolves and I don’t want them wiped out. What I DO want is for them to be managed to a plan just like every OTHER species of wildlife in this state. Currently, MN literally has more say-so over the management of crows than we do wolves. That’s crazy.
This is the part I was trying to get at. I think a controlled population of them is healthy for the ecosystem. Uncontrolled, no. If Colorado is able to establish AND control a reproducing population, that’s fine. If not, well, then Joneser is probably right, no reason to. The first step is removing them from the Endangered Species List.
October 17, 2020 at 1:04 pm #1980342While out grouse hunting, I came across this sign North of Duluth.
It speaks volumes to how, at least the people I talk to feel.
I have be relatives that live in Wisconsin their entire life on the same land and they say exactly the same thing. Deer numbers are the lowest they have ever seen.
I love seeing wolves in the wild and beleive that they should be out there roaming free, BUT also believe that we should be able to manage them like any other animal with a season to keep numbers in tact.Attachments:
Tom schmittPosts: 1018October 17, 2020 at 6:01 pm #1980387If you want to know what will happen ask someone from Idaho.
Idaho had a really well controlled elk population until they brought wolves down from Canada.
Now the only place with good elk populations are close to civilization, the backcountry is a mess.October 18, 2020 at 9:06 am #1980503It’s also worth noting that a lot of people seem to think that opening a hunting season on wolves would control or even reduce a population.
No way. Most people have no idea how hard it is to bag a single wolf. The hunter success rates are miniscule.
The only real way to effectively reduce a population is by trapping. Problem is there are damn few skilled trappers left.
Just something to think about when it comes to how difficult it would be to institute a management plan to actually reduce a population.
Grouse
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