cited for passing a school bus

tbro16 wrote:

I’m not going to sit here and advocate for people swerving around yellow lights on a bus, but this is copied from the MN state manual for bus drivers. Steps number 5 and 6 are key here. Clearly the bus driver didn’t get the flashing red lights on by slightly cracking the door, then checking to make sure surrounding traffic has all stopped before opening the door wide, allowing kids to get off the bus. He didn’t follow proper protocol. Based off the info in the OP, it sounds like the bus driver just opened the door (which automatically turns on the flashing red lights) without looking around to make sure its safe first.

C. Unloading Procedure:
Follow these steps:
1. Check traffic in both directions.
2. Activate the pre-amber warning lights. (100 feet under 35 mph and 300 feet over 35mph).
3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.
4. Check traffic from all directions to make sure it is able to stop.
5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate stop arm.
6. Make sure that all oncoming traffic has stopped before opening the door fully.

I’m sure I don’t have all the information, but from whats been provided, I think its on the bus driver. Don’t mean to get everyones panties in a bunch over this, just stating what the book says.

How do you know the driver didn’t just crack the door? Were you there?

munchy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>tbro16 wrote:</div>
I’m not going to sit here and advocate for people swerving around yellow lights on a bus, but this is copied from the MN state manual for bus drivers. Steps number 5 and 6 are key here. Clearly the bus driver didn’t get the flashing red lights on by slightly cracking the door, then checking to make sure surrounding traffic has all stopped before opening the door wide, allowing kids to get off the bus. He didn’t follow proper protocol. Based off the info in the OP, it sounds like the bus driver just opened the door (which automatically turns on the flashing red lights) without looking around to make sure its safe first.

C. Unloading Procedure:
Follow these steps:
1. Check traffic in both directions.
2. Activate the pre-amber warning lights. (100 feet under 35 mph and 300 feet over 35mph).
3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.
4. Check traffic from all directions to make sure it is able to stop.
5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate stop arm.
6. Make sure that all oncoming traffic has stopped before opening the door fully.

I’m sure I don’t have all the information, but from whats been provided, I think its on the bus driver. Don’t mean to get everyones panties in a bunch over this, just stating what the book says.

How do you now the driver didn’t just crack the door? Were you there?

Even if he did just crack the door, it seems that the bus driver ignored step 4.

fishinfreaks wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>pale ryder wrote:</div>
If the details in the OP are correct, the bus driver made the greater error. He should not have opened the door while being passed. Even if the driver passing him is breaking the law.
It is not clear to me what happened when the red lights came on.

This is 100% incorrect. It is the bus drivers job to open the door and engage the stop sign and lights immediately upon stopping regardless of where other vehicles are. It is the duty of the vehicles around the school bus to be aware that the bus’s warning lights are on and that the bus is coming to a stop, thereby anticipating the stop sign and lights immediately when the bus comes to a complete stop. And don’t try the argument of “how is someone supposed to know when the bus is coming to a complete stop?”. That is completely ignorant and careless.

For the safety of the students, the driver then waits to signal the students to load once it is safe to do so.

Those are 2 completely separate actions at a bus stop.

Are you saying that steps 4,5, and 6 are incorrect ?

C. Unloading Procedure:
Follow these steps:
1. Check traffic in both directions.
2. Activate the pre-amber warning lights. (100 feet under 35 mph and 300 feet over 35mph).
3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.
4. Check traffic from all directions to make sure it is able to stop.
5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate stop arm.
6. Make sure that all oncoming traffic has stopped before opening the door fully.

pale ryder wrote:

Are you saying that steps 4,5, and 6 are incorrect ?

C. Unloading Procedure:
Follow these steps:
1. Check traffic in both directions.
2. Activate the pre-amber warning lights. (100 feet under 35 mph and 300 feet over 35mph).
3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.
4. Check traffic from all directions to make sure it is able to stop.
5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate stop arm.
6. Make sure that all oncoming traffic has stopped before opening the door fully.

I’d like to see where you got that from. That’s not how bus companies train their driver in their manuals or classes.

fishinfreaks wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>pale ryder wrote:</div>

Are you saying that steps 4,5, and 6 are incorrect ?

C. Unloading Procedure:
Follow these steps:
1. Check traffic in both directions.
2. Activate the pre-amber warning lights. (100 feet under 35 mph and 300 feet over 35mph).
3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.
4. Check traffic from all directions to make sure it is able to stop.
5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate stop arm.
6. Make sure that all oncoming traffic has stopped before opening the door fully.

I’d like to see where you got that from. That’s not how bus companies train their driver in their manuals or classes.

I copied it from post #1818126 above.
It seems sensible to me.

munchy wrote:

How do you know the driver didn’t just crack the door? Were you there?

Reading comprehension never was a strong suit for you, was it?

fishinfreaks wrote:

I’d like to see where you got that from. That’s not how bus companies train their driver in their manuals or classes.

Its a school bus drivers manual, comes from the MN department of public safety. Link is here-
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/msp/forms-reports/Documents/sb-driver-manual-070111.pdf

Ah got it. That’s a sample manual. It doesn’t state the laws. Apparently there is some lee-way on how a school bus company trains their drivers to reply the stop sign/engage stop lights.

Either way, the OP ran a stop sign on a bus. Plan on the fine.

Correct. By just looking at the manual, it seems the bus driver is in the wrong. This also doesn’t mean that the person driving the car is in the right, either. Have no clue how the law differs from this.

Either way, glad this topic came up. I picked up a few things I don’t think I knew prior to following. Thankful nobody was injured and hope you get out of the fine!

So the bus driver has to wait for these yahoos that don’t want to wait.
When does he stop waiting when there is m0re than 1 yahoo that does not want to wait.

“If the sign had said “do not pass when lights are flashing,” I wouldn’t have moved. In my opinion the driver is the one who endangered children here, by popping out his stop-sign arm — which is supposed to signal to children that it’s safe to cross the street — while there was clearly a vehicle in the process of passing him in the left lane. 5 more seconds and I would’ve been safely clear.”

These bus drivers probably see a lot of stuff like this and much worst things. So, my guess, he saw someone disrespecting his job and the kids he has to protect and with his discretion let you have it. I can not see how you could think he put any kids in danger. If he layed a trap for you then you fell for it. I probably would do the same thing he did. If there were kids at the curb why would you pass the bus?

Sounds like he’s made up how mind to fight it, why don’t we just wait to see what the judge says.

When’s your court date?

Wow, a lot of research being done on this one. Laws, statutes,diagrams, bus driver etiquette blah blah blah.
None of those listed common sense.

It’s about kids preparing to get off a bus, 90% of which are listening to music or staring at their phone. And that’s not a slam on kids at all, it’s just something to take into consideration.

To try and place blame on the bus driver for not shooting off the right color flare is desperate. Never put 100% confidence in anyone’s performance at their job. Geez, just look at Chernobyl.

To echo what biggill said, please post the outcome of your battle against the man.

I thought the stop arm comes out automatically when the driver opens the door. I can see why they would hesitate and wait for it to be safe before deploying it by opening the door.

tangler wrote:

I’m wondering what nis the purpose of having yellow flashing lights that come on for a period of time before the red ones? If they want people to stop as soon as the yellows come on, the sign should say that?

I haven’t read all the replies, but the yellows coming on are the same as a yellow light coming on at the intersection. Alerting you to slow down/proceed with caution because red is next.

tangler wrote:

Right about the time I’m almost even with the driver’s window out comes the stop-sign arm and the flashing red lights, and the driver lays on his horn.

Same as if you were to cross an intersection at the same time it went red, you knew it was coming but didn’t know exactly when. The stoplight turned red at the same time you crossed, therefore you ran a redlight.

belletaine wrote:

To echo what biggill said, please post the outcome of your battle against the man.

Cue some Mellencamp.

Grouse

If I remember, the “about to stop lights” that are mounted by the flashing reds, are a wig wag pattern.
The 4 way yellows are just a standard flasher.
Might be ok to pass the 4 ways, not the wig wags.

you will lose this fight 11 times out of 10. Don’t waste your time, pay the fine plus and learn from it. The law don’t take kindly to passing a school bus and they shouldn’t!

Holy cow, 79 posts in this thread. I’ve read each one and appreciate the feedback.

To clarify, I haven’t been cited so I don’t have a court date or anything of that nature yet. All I’ve received is a letter from my local LEO asking me to respond to the allegations within 14 days. Perhaps that’s just a formality that they need to cover before issuing the citation, or perhaps they will actually look at the entire situation and make a decision based on the full circumstances. I appreciate the chance to make my case.

With that, I’ll be checking out of this thread as I don’t need the added stress. Let’s just say I’ve learned more than 1 lesson through this thing. I’ll let y’all know the outcome either way.

tangler wrote:

To clarify, I haven’t been cited so I don’t have a court date or anything of that nature yet. All I’ve received is a letter from my local LEO asking me to respond to the allegations within 14 days.

I have no sympathy for your situation,

However, if you plead not guilty and ask for your plea to be heard by a Jury, courts tend to settle or drop cases with warnings.

this happened to me and i won.

yellow flashing lights typcally mean that the child has not come out side yet, the moment thy are, they put the red lights on and you can not pass. if they are flashing yellow you may cautiously. my way to work is right on a bus route in a rough neighborhood. the busses stop for 15-20 seconds and then move on a lot. People slowly pass all the time because the law says its ok. There is no guarantee a red is around the corner. bus drivers will usually wave you through too. but not this one time.

i saw no child out and crept around, she’d been at that stop a good 10-15 seconds with no activity from the hosue…the lady drving the bus saw me as i was passing her very slowly and she started honking. NEVER put the arm down or red lights just honked. as another car approached she put the arm down (as i saw in the rearview)

sure enough i got a ticket in the mail, i went to court explained the situation, and they dismissed it. our buses have cameras. the DA would of had to prove that the reds were on and i was passing. it appeared i made enough of a case that the DA rep didn’t want to go further.

Bus drivers forget occasionally. thats on them. as long as you were following the law, i’d fight it.

You are lucky you don’t live in Iowa. Since the house and senate passed the new law. Passing a school bus is a hefty fine and up to one year suspended license. There is no gray area about lights. If you pass when the lights are red and the arm is out you are in the wrong. I am on our local school board and when we order new buses now they all have a camera in them that turns on automatically when the top yellows go on and there is an icon in the corner of the camera frame for when the reds are on and stop arm out. If you are on the camera and that icon is in the frame you are guilty.

I am sorry I was wrong. First offense for passing stopped school bus is 30 days without a license in Iowa.

sounds like cameras would vindicate him. i know they would of me.

Neal Keeling wrote:

You are lucky you don’t live in Iowa. Since the house and senate passed the new law. Passing a school bus is a hefty fine and up to one year suspended license. There is no gray area about lights. If you pass when the lights are red and the arm is out you are in the wrong. I am on our local school board and when we order new buses now they all have a camera in them that turns on automatically when the top yellows go on and there is an icon in the corner of the camera frame for when the reds are on and stop arm out. If you are on the camera and that icon is in the frame you are guilty.

With all the recent examples of kids being killed by drivers passing school buses, I’d give you a very small chance of winning in this situation.

I guess I view them like the prepare to stop signal flashing before the light turns red. Its telling you, you don’t have enough time to pass. You didn’t complete your pass before the red lights turned on, there for you passed a bus with red lights flashing. The other lights are a warning and just like the stop light one it doesn’t mean go faster.

I’d ask to see the video, and hope it catches 5 seconds before the stop sign was folded-out. Some of the reading I’m doing say’s the cameras are always recording, so the evidence could exist that you were legally passing on flashing yellows, when the SB drivers decided to “catch” you and pull the stop sign out while you were alongside. Or, worse yet, he waved you by on the yellows, then pulled the trigger, while you were next to or even past the sign.

Call me paranoid, but I could see camera companies offering bonuses to drivers for catching/creating violations. Especially when some of them get up to 75% of the fine.

HRG

We all know what the lights for a school bus mean. You passed when you should not. What if that was your kid getting on the bus and someone else with your attitude hit your kids. It is worth it. Safety for the kids’ sake. Being unwilling to admit you are wrong and could have killed someones kids makes me hope they throw the book at you.

With all the hang em high people…. just a question… why are there yellow lights on a school bus ? On traffic lights, I was taught the yellow light follows a green and is designed to slow and stop approaching traffic that clearly will not get through the intersection before turning red… so on a school bus, does yellow mean lock em up and stop where ever you are in the process ? If so, shouldn’t they just be red so as to not confuse ?

I will just add that some school bus drivers…are not traffic controllers.

Ever seen a school bus…flashing red lights with full out stop sign arm…not a single passenger getting on or off the school bus…The Sting in the worst way.

There should be an equal counter-suit law for these bus drivers…

big_g wrote:

With all the hang em high people…. just a question… why are there yellow lights on a school bus ? On traffic lights, I was taught the yellow light follows a green and is designed to slow and stop approaching traffic that clearly will not get through the intersection before turning red… so on a school bus, does yellow mean lock em up and stop where ever you are in the process ? If so, shouldn’t they just be red so as to not confuse ?

Not following your logic?

Instant mobile red “traffic” lights would cause thousands of car accidents across the country every day.

The entire purpose of the alternating yellow lights on a bus is to give all drivers fair warning to stop.

B-man wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>big_g wrote:</div>
With all the hang em high people…. just a question… why are there yellow lights on a school bus ? On traffic lights, I was taught the yellow light follows a green and is designed to slow and stop approaching traffic that clearly will not get through the intersection before turning red… so on a school bus, does yellow mean lock em up and stop where ever you are in the process ? If so, shouldn’t they just be red so as to not confuse ?

Not following your logic?

Instant mobile red “traffic” lights would cause thousands of car accidents across the country every day.

The entire purpose of the alternating yellow lights on a bus is to give all drivers fair warning to stop.

Could not been said any plainer or better