cited for passing a school bus

Dutchboy wrote:

Purpose is to get you to stop behind the bus knowing the stop arm and red lights are next. They certainly can’t go from driving to red lights.

Not entirely true!
I have seen and passed buses many times legally with amber lights on!
Railroad crossings on both two and four lanes.
Also have passed them when they are in front of houses waiting several minutes for the kids to come out! If people waited behind that bus for several minutes till he turned the reds on traffic would be backed up for miles in both directions!

mplspug wrote:

I’m curious, you looking for sympathy or support?

I don’t know, maybe it’s me, but flashing lights on a bus means take extra precaution and wait until there are no lights or children.

So flashing yellow lights mean stop?

I think he’s looking to understand more. I have been similar positions often and wonder the same thing about this topic. They can turn the yellow lights on while they are moving and depending where you are I have had them turn the reds on. I would have had to slam on the brakes for the yellows to make stopping for the red possible….and I was doing the speed limit.

Many (I would almost say most) drivers I have come across pay attention and wait to put out the reds in this situation. I have had a few that don’t and start yelling. Maybe I was in the wrong, and I will accept that if so.

I now pretty much stop when I see yellow lights.

Turns out I haven’t actually been cited… yet. Got home to read everything and I have 14 days to respond to the complaint and it will go from there. If and when I’m cited I’ll go from there. I have more time than money so will fight it if I can. Not because I think I’m right or perfect but because the legal system is there to enforce laws, and I don’t believe a law has been broken.

Someone asked me whether I was looking for sympathy or support. Neither? I’m just venting on the internet like many others. I figured the responses would be about how they are. Don’t expect everyone to see this my way and don’t claim to be a perfect person. But I do have respect for the law. I believe I have a responsibility to follow them; and I believe that the state has a responsibility to apply them as written by the legislature.

mikek wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dutchboy wrote:</div>
Purpose is to get you to stop behind the bus knowing the stop arm and red lights are next. They certainly can’t go from driving to red lights.

Not entirely true!
I have seen and passed buses many times legally with amber lights on!
Railroad crossings on both two and four lanes.
Also have passed them when they are in front of houses waiting several minutes for the kids to come out! If people waited behind that bus for several minutes till he turned the reds on traffic would be backed up for miles in both directions!

Correct. When a bus is at a railroad crossing, it turns on the yellow 4 way blinkers instead of the flashing amber warning lights. That way, when they stop at the railroad crossing, they do not engage the red stop lights and sign. 100% legal to pass this stopped bus whether or not there are students on the bus.

Also, when a bus stops at certain stops, pre-designated by the school district (based upon the type of stop – possibly in a parking lot, irregular street, (I don’t remember all the situations)), they will use the yellow four ways rather than the flashing amber warning lights. This situation also allows for one to legally pass a stopped school bus that is loading or unloading.

How do you tell the difference between the yellow four ways or flashing amber warning lights? The yellow four ways are lower on the body near the brake lights and oftentimes have arrows on them, as they double as the turn signals. The flashing amber warning lights are on the top corners of the bus directly adjacent to the red stop lights. I do believe most people know the difference between the two locations of yellow/amber lights.

Did you pass a bus with a stop sign extended or not?

tangler wrote:

Turns out I haven’t actually been cited… yet. Got home to read everything and I have 14 days to respond to the complaint and it will go from there. If and when I’m cited I’ll go from there. I have more time than money so will fight it if I can. Not because I think I’m right or perfect but because the legal system is there to enforce laws, and I don’t believe a law has been broken.

Someone asked me whether I was looking for sympathy or support. Neither? I’m just venting on the internet like many others. I figured the responses would be about how they are. Don’t expect everyone to see this my way and don’t claim to be a perfect person. But I do have respect for the law. I believe I have a responsibility to follow them; and I believe that the state has a responsibility to apply them as written by the legislature.

I get where your going with this, have at it, no judgment on my part. Maybe a bit but with respect.
Vent away, I learn new things with conversation and I learn about myself through my responses to correct my failings. My failings don’t seem to be going so well at times.

My wife is a bus driver. She NEVER picks up a kid without the reds flashing. Doesn’t matter if the pickup is on the left or right side, red lights and stop arm is used. Never heard of picking kids up with just the amber lights on. Of course we live in a rural/small town area so 4 lane areas are minimal.
As for the OP it will be your word versus the bus driver but there also might of been a bus monitor person that was riding along so it will be 2 against 1 in court. Hopefully they have video to support your argument.

It may be easier just to move and change your name.

biggill wrote:

Did you pass a bus with a stop sign extended or not?

It takes time to pass a bus at roughly 10mph. When I made the decision to pass and began passing, only yellow lights and no stop sign. The stop sign came out when I was almost passed him already, then he honked. Based on my experiences with other buses in my neighborhood I did not expect to see the reds come on when I made my decision. I wasn’t trying to get away with something or trying to beat traffic.

fishinfreaks wrote:

How do you tell the difference between the yellow four ways or flashing amber warning lights? The yellow four ways are lower on the body near the brake lights and oftentimes have arrows on them, as they double as the turn signals. The flashing amber warning lights are on the top corners of the bus directly adjacent to the red stop lights. I do believe most people know the difference between the two locations of yellow/amber lights.

This is honestly the first time I’ve ever heard that and I’d guess I’m not the only one. Along with my letter from my my local officer I received a brochure on school bus safety and it never mentions this either.

tangler wrote:

Turns out I haven’t actually been cited… yet. Got home to read everything and I have 14 days to respond to the complaint and it will go from there. If and when I’m cited I’ll go from there. I have more time than money so will fight it if I can. Not because I think I’m right or perfect but because the legal system is there to enforce laws, and I don’t believe a law has been broken.

Someone asked me whether I was looking for sympathy or support. Neither? I’m just venting on the internet like many others. I figured the responses would be about how they are. Don’t expect everyone to see this my way and don’t claim to be a perfect person. But I do have respect for the law. I believe I have a responsibility to follow them; and I believe that the state has a responsibility to apply them as written by the legislature.

Im guessing your are new to our legal system to. Your view of right wins and wrong looses in the justice system is not exactly how it goes. Those with time and money win in the justice system. Those without typical loose. Here is a sure fire way to win in court. Dont do anything that you need to go to court for. If you do take this to court maybe try getting a judge that doesn’t have any kids or maybe doesn’t like kids. You might have a chance then.

So you never did say what you where in such a hurry for in the 1st place? Im guessing headed fishing. Thats the only time I seem to get heavy on the gas. Where they biting?

tangler wrote:

It takes time to pass a bus at roughly 10mph. When I made the decision to pass and began passing, only yellow lights and no stop sign. The stop sign came out when I was almost passed him already, then he honked.

It’s a simple question. Unless there were unusual circumstances that made it impossible to stop for the sign, you broke the law. People get tickets for running red lights for “almost” passing on a yellow light. The yellow is to wan you of a red light that you MUST stop for.

Bottom line is you passed a bus stop sign while it was fully extended. The yellow flashing lights warned you of a red stop sign and red flashing lights. You chose to proceed and passed a stop sign.

I’ll admit I’ve been in the exact situation and I admit it happens fast. I’ve also seen the driver open the doors with only yellows too. I’ve only learned that I should just avoid passing until I know it is ok to pass.

Why would anybody go around a school bus with any lights flashing, they were not stopped but slowing down, sorry I personally think you were in the wrong

Eelpoutguy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Steve Root wrote:</div>
Does it matter if there are two lanes? The situation I described is on Babcock Trail in IGH, which is two lanes both directions. The bus is in the right lane…with NO stop sign or red light….. and I’ve seen hundreds of cars passing on the left. Honestly I’d be terrified to stop in the left lane 20 feet from the bus. I’d get rear ended at 40 mph.

S.R.

Yes you have to stop and so does opposing traffic. Unless it is divided with an island. The reason I know this is I just saw it on a news channel going over the rules

Not in IL. My wife got a ticket passing a school bus in the opposing lane, on a 4-lane (2 each way), I contacted the Chief of Police of the town, emailed him the statute, and he dismissed the ticket.

No island required.

HRG

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tangler wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>basseyes wrote:</div>
The reasons why you passed, or felt it was viable to pass or the actual letter of the statute really won’t matter all that much in fighting it.
You passed a bus.

The judge will look at whatever the driver says as gospel. And the driver obviously didn’t believe you were in the right to pass. That alone says it all.

Okie doke then, good to know that it doesn’t matter what the law is or whether I broke it, only that a school bus driver said so. Yeesh. Thankfully I’ll be appearing in a court of law, before a judge sworn to uphold the laws of our state, not to mete out justice based on a bus driver’s opinion.

There’s interpretation of the law, what actually happened and how eyewitnesses remember the incident.
The judge has to interpret that to the best of his ability with the evidence presented. If the lights where flashing and the arm came out as you were passing, do the math. Argue all you want and tell the judge how you truly feel and you might be in for a fun surprise at the end of your court date.

Good luck with it and I wouldn’t be caught again doing it if I was you or you could be in some serious hot water.

The flashing yellows are just another example of well-intentioned stupidity. They should go back to turning on the RED lights before they stop so everyone knows that they should STOP because the bus is going to STOP to pick up kids.

Another thing – whoever came up with the freakin’ strobe lights on top of buses has probably caused more accidents by distracting people than they have prevented.

This seems more like a “warning notice” to respect the flashing yellow lights or they would have issued a ticket immediately. If they pursue issuing a ticket and have video of you passing (that’s probably how they knew who to contact) be prepared by knowing how long it takes to pass that bus at the rate of speed you were traveling to show that you were BESIDE the bus when the driver flipped on the reds. Also ask how many complaints have been issued by this driver – it sounds like the driver could have an attitude problem.

Start ending everything you say with “your honor”

if you “LIVE to take off work” why were you in such a hurry to get to work on the morning in question? :devilemoji:

sorry-I’m not a lawyer nor am I particularly sympathetic to your plight.

Obviously I don’t think you were out to mow down a kid either.

In my limited experiences with “the law” contrition goes along way. And I don’t think you’re gonna win this argument. I wonder if you could get charged with court fees on top of the original fine (if eventually issued)?

Bassn Dan wrote:

The flashing yellows are just another example of well-intentioned stupidity. They should go back to turning on the RED lights before they stop so everyone knows that they should STOP because the bus is going to STOP to pick up kids.

Another thing – whoever came up with the freakin’ strobe lights on top of buses has probably caused more accidents by distracting people than they have prevented.

This seems more like a “warning notice” to respect the flashing yellow lights or they would have issued a ticket immediately. If they pursue issuing a ticket and have video of you passing (that’s probably how they knew who to contact) be prepared by knowing how long it takes to pass that bus at the rate of speed you were traveling to show that you were BESIDE the bus when the driver flipped on the reds. Also ask how many complaints have been issued by this driver – it sounds like the driver could have an attitude problem.

The strobes are for fog.

For the op, Is it really that hard to stop for a school bus? It really isn’t that hard of a concept regardless of what color the lights are. Maybe next time leave your house a few minutes earlier. I hope you’re fined. Then hopefully you’ll be reminded to stop for school buses.

I asked a good pal that is a cop about this. Here is his cleaned up response: “If you enter an intersection on a yellow light, and you have not cleared the intersection when it turns red, you are in violation. If you start to pass a bus on a yellow, and the reds come on before you finish, you are in violation. Period. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”

His actual wording was slightly harsher. YMMV

Good luck.

PS, and a 4 lane undivided Hwy, you must stop for a school bus, both directions.

Timmy did you ask him what you do if the lights stay yellow? The buses I see don’t turn on the red lights. They only have flashing yellow lights on. Very confusing.

S.R.

tangler wrote:

oday I get a citation in the mail, which I will be fighting.

If the sign had said “do not pass when lights are flashing,” I wouldn’t have moved. In my opinion the driver is the one who endangered children here, by popping out his stop-sign arm — which is supposed to signal to children that it’s safe to cross the street — while there was clearly a vehicle in the process of passing him in the left lane. 5 more seconds and I would’ve been safely clear.

I’m wondering what nis the purpose of having yellow flashing lights that come on for a period of time before the red ones? If they want people to stop as soon as the yellows come on, the sign should say that?

I’ll tell you just what 1000 out of 1000 judges will tell you when you try to fight this.

What is the purpose of the yellow lights? To tell you that the red lights are coming on at any moment. That is obvious to any functioning adult.

At this point the judge will gavel you down and say something to the effect that he can’t believe you’re wasting his time.

The judge will also not be impressed with your “blame the bus driver for not letting you complete what otherwise would be an illegal pass” theory. You probably will never get this far, though.

Just a little hint here. Look up MN Statute 169.444 SAFETY OF SCHOOL CHILDREN.

Then read the Penalties section. I’ll highlight the key phrase here:

Subd. 2.Violations by drivers; penalties. (a) A person who fails to stop a vehicle or to keep it stopped, as required in subdivision 1, or who violates subdivision 1a, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of

not less than

$500.

Not LESS than $500. At this point you’re going to have to weigh your chances that the judge won’t hit you with a $3000 fine plus court costs plus 40 hours of riding along with a school bus driver plus community service for wasting the court’s time with your “defense” of how you endangered children.

The “best” case scenario if you take this to court is a very patient judge lets you off with the minimum fine of $500 plus cargument. The arguements you present are highly unlikely to encourage her/him to go that easy on you.

Grouse

” What is the purpose of the yellow lights? To tell you that the red lights are coming on at any moment. That is obvious to any functioning adult. ”

Nope, I see school buses every day that NEVER turn the red lights on. Based on the chart PG01 provided, I am required to “proceed with caution”. What if there’s a different driver than the ones I’ve been dealing with for years, and this guy waits until I’m along side the bus and then flips on the red lights? I can’t read the driver’s mind.

S.R.

Ah! OK, this makes more sense now. The busses I’ve been seeing have the LOWER yellow lights flashing. OK, I’ve learned something valuable. Thanks!

And for the record, I’m always very cautious anywhere that there might be kids. Like an earlier poster said, there’s nothing I’m doing that is remotely as important as a young life.

S.R.

Timmy wrote:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”

Bingo

your diagram of a 5 lane undivided hwy is incorrect, you must stop both directions

If the details in the OP are correct, the bus driver made the greater error. He should not have opened the door while being passed. Even if the driver passing him is breaking the law.
It is not clear to me what happened when the red lights came on.
Did the driver in the OP stop immediately ?
If so I don’t see how he broke any law.
If he did not stop immediately he did break the law.
If he was going to fast to stop immediately, he broke the law.

pale ryder wrote:

If the details in the OP are correct, the bus driver made the greater error. He should not have opened the door while being passed. Even if the driver passing him is breaking the law.
It is not clear to me what happened when the red lights came on.

This is 100% incorrect. It is the bus drivers job to open the door and engage the stop sign and lights immediately upon stopping regardless of where other vehicles are. It is the duty of the vehicles around the school bus to be aware that the bus’s warning lights are on and that the bus is coming to a stop, thereby anticipating the stop sign and lights immediately when the bus comes to a complete stop. And don’t try the argument of “how is someone supposed to know when the bus is coming to a complete stop?”. That is completely ignorant and careless.

For the safety of the students, the driver then waits to signal the students to load once it is safe to do so.

Those are 2 completely separate actions at a bus stop.

Steve Root wrote:

Timmy did you ask him what you do if the lights stay yellow? The buses I see don’t turn on the red lights. They only have flashing yellow lights on. Very confusing.

S.R.

I didn’t ask that exact question. He just said the criteria is the same as a stoplight, *IF* the red appears, you are wrong…..period.

Red light = STOP. If you dont(or can’t) stop on red, you are at fault – Period.

I’m not going to sit here and advocate for people swerving around yellow lights on a bus, but this is copied from the MN state manual for bus drivers. Steps number 5 and 6 are key here. Clearly the bus driver didn’t get the flashing red lights on by slightly cracking the door, then checking to make sure surrounding traffic has all stopped before opening the door wide, allowing kids to get off the bus. He didn’t follow proper protocol. Based off the info in the OP, it sounds like the bus driver just opened the door (which automatically turns on the flashing red lights) without looking around to make sure its safe first.

C. Unloading Procedure:
Follow these steps:
1. Check traffic in both directions.
2. Activate the pre-amber warning lights. (100 feet under 35 mph and 300 feet over 35mph).
3. Slow gradually and stop in the roadway.
4. Check traffic from all directions to make sure it is able to stop.
5. Open the service door just a crack to turn on the alternately flashing red lights and activate stop arm.
6. Make sure that all oncoming traffic has stopped before opening the door fully.

I’m sure I don’t have all the information, but from whats been provided, I think its on the bus driver. Don’t mean to get everyones panties in a bunch over this, just stating what the book says.