cited for passing a school bus

Last week on the way to work I come up behind a school bus with flashing yellow lights. Sign on the back of buses in MN says “do no pass when RED lights are flashing.” So I moved to go around him. Right about the time I’m almost even with the driver’s window out comes the stop-sign arm and the flashing red lights, and the driver lays on his horn.

Today I get a citation in the mail, which I will be fighting.

If the sign had said “do not pass when lights are flashing,” I wouldn’t have moved. In my opinion the driver is the one who endangered children here, by popping out his stop-sign arm — which is supposed to signal to children that it’s safe to cross the street — while there was clearly a vehicle in the process of passing him in the left lane. 5 more seconds and I would’ve been safely clear.

I’m wondering what nis the purpose of having yellow flashing lights that come on for a period of time before the red ones? If they want people to stop as soon as the yellows come on, the sign should say that?

Purpose is to get you to stop behind the bus knowing the stop arm and red lights are next. They certainly can’t go from driving to red lights.

Unless you have only have had a license for about 10 minutes you pretty much know the process of school buses.

Fight away but don’t expect to win.

Subdivision 1.Children getting on or off school bus. When a school bus is stopped on a street or highway, or other location where signs have been erected under section 169.443, subdivision 2, paragraph (b), and is displaying an extended stop-signal arm and flashing red lights, the driver of a vehicle approaching the bus shall stop the vehicle at least 20 feet away from the bus. The vehicle driver shall not allow the vehicle to move until the school bus stop-signal arm is retracted and the red lights are no longer flashing.

That’s the law. When I made the decision to go around him, there were no red lights or stop sign. So how did I break the law?

The next part:

Subd. 1a.Passing on right. No person may pass or attempt to pass a school bus in a motor vehicle on the right-hand, passenger-door side of the bus when the school bus is displaying the prewarning flashing amber signals as required in section 169.443, subdivision 1.

I passed on the LEFT with the amber signals, not on the right. No law broken.

Ya, I’d probably not take off work, and just pay the fine. School bus is a pretty precious topic.

It’s always a good idea to slow down and proceed with caution when approaching school buses, but I have seen them stop and pick up/drop off kids and ONLY turn on the yellow flashing lights, without using the red lights or extending out the stop sign at all. I agree in questioning the point of the signage specifically indicating you must stop when the RED lights are flashing if not all drivers are going to follow procedure and turn on the red ones too.

I would fight the citation, depending on the cost and ease of making a court appearance of course, because according to the signage you did not break any laws. And ultimately that’s what it comes down to.

David Blais wrote:

Ya, I’d probably not take off work, and just pay the fine. School bus is a pretty precious topic.

I kind of LIVE to take off work. Usually its’ to go fishing, but I’ll also do so to save myself a few hundred bucks. Might even be $500, I need to get home and read up.

Sharon wrote:

It’s always a good idea to slow down and proceed with caution when approaching school buses, but I have seen them stop and pick up/drop off kids and ONLY turn on the yellow flashing lights, without using the red lights or extending out the stop sign at all. I agree in questioning the point of the signage specifically indicating you must stop when the RED lights are flashing if not all drivers are going to follow procedure and turn on the red ones too.

I would fight the citation, depending on the cost and ease of making a court appearance of course, because according to the signage you did not break any laws. And ultimately that’s what it comes down to.

Completely agree. I’m always cautious and there wasn’t a kid anywhere in sight. And YES, there’s a bus a couple streets over in the exact same scenario that NEVER puts out the stop sign or red lights when picking kids up on the right side of the street.

Dutchboy wrote:

Purpose is to get you to stop behind the bus knowing the stop arm and red lights are next. They certainly can’t go from driving to red lights.

Unless you have only have had a license for about 10 minutes you pretty much know the process of school buses.

Fight away but don’t expect to win.

This…..

A school bus is giving you a fair warning that it’s stopping for a kid.

It’s not a signal to hurry up and pass…..it’s a signal that that the arm is coming out.

In reality it’s meant to warn ONCOMING traffic more to slow down and stop (since the gap is closing twice as fast), not following traffic so much.

It’s one thing to run a yellow light that just turned red. But a school bus is a completely different story.

Never in a million years will you win in court.

I’d also like to know your thinking when this occurred??? Did you think that the bus was stopping for a kid or just for a quick lunch on the side of the road?

Ill be curious to find out the outcome–my .02 pay the fine, lesson learned

B-man wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dutchboy wrote:</div>
Purpose is to get you to stop behind the bus knowing the stop arm and red lights are next. They certainly can’t go from driving to red lights.

Unless you have only have had a license for about 10 minutes you pretty much know the process of school buses.

Fight away but don’t expect to win.

This…..

A school bus is giving you a fair warning that it’s stopping for a kid.

It’s not a signal to hurry up and pass…..it’s a signal that that the arm is coming out.

In reality it’s meant to warn ONCOMING traffic to slow down and stop, not following traffic.

Never in a million years will you win in court.

Maybe you guys are right, I’ll find out eventually. But as Sharon and I point out — if there are some buses that never put out the reds at all in this situation, then how can they claim the yellow ones are a signal that the red ones are coming? I also don’t see how they can prove that a law was broken.

Sorry Tangle, in the court of popular opinion you lost.

I will be shocked if you get any leniency in traffic court (even with good intentions).

The reasons why you passed, or felt it was viable to pass or the actual letter of the statute really won’t matter all that much in fighting it.

You passed a bus.

The judge will look at whatever the driver says as gospel. And the driver obviously didn’t believe you were in the right to pass. That alone says it all.

On my way home I frequently see school buses loading and unloading kids with nothing displayed except yellow blinking lights. No red lights, no stop sign. They’re pulled over to the right, and cars are passing the bus on the left. I see this almost every day that school is in session.

I can see Dutch’s point about yellow warning drivers that the red is coming next, light a stop light. But these buses don’t turn on the red lights.

There seems to be some confusion about what the law really says, how drivers react, and what the bus drivers are doing. I’ll be interested to see how this one turns out too.

S.R.

I would think in the age of cell phones and distracted drivers there a lot of people blowing around buses. Everybody is far more important then anybody else is, even our kids. Can’t blame the driver for turning you in. I think most buses even have video cameras now just for these reasons.

Like BK said, in the court of public opinion you are toast on this one. Wanna fight it fight it. But just be thankful some little kid didn’t come darting out when you went around.

From Tangler: Maybe you guys are right, I’ll find out eventually. But as Sharon and I point out — if there are some buses that never put out the reds at all in this situation, then how can they claim the yellow ones are a signal that the red ones are coming? I also don’t see how they can prove that a law was broken

……………

Was the bus way off on a shoulder sitting there for some time with the yellow lights flashing? Or was it coming to a stop and taking up a lane of traffic?

Sorry, the yellow lights are a pre warning the bus is stopping for kids.

Here’s the deal. You’re behind a moving buss. You can’t see where the kids are. (Remember, kids are stupid. Adult drivers are suppose to drive smart.) You may get away with that passing move a hundred times. However, the one time a kid darts out in your lane running for a bus. Your life will be changed forever. I personally could not live with myself if I killed a kid who was simply trying to go to school.

Something to think about…..

-J.

basseyes wrote:

The reasons why you passed, or felt it was viable to pass or the actual letter of the statute really won’t matter all that much in fighting it.
You passed a bus.

The judge will look at whatever the driver says as gospel. And the driver obviously didn’t believe you were in the right to pass. That alone says it all.

Okie doke then, good to know that it doesn’t matter what the law is or whether I broke it, only that a school bus driver said so. Yeesh. Thankfully I’ll be appearing in a court of law, before a judge sworn to uphold the laws of our state, not to mete out justice based on a bus driver’s opinion.

Does it matter if there are two lanes? The situation I described is on Babcock Trail in IGH, which is two lanes both directions. The bus is in the right lane…with NO stop sign or red light….. and I’ve seen hundreds of cars passing on the left. Honestly I’d be terrified to stop in the left lane 20 feet from the bus. I’d get rear ended at 40 mph.

S.R.

Steve Root wrote:

Does it matter if there are two lanes? The situation I described is on Babcock Trail in IGH, which is two lanes both directions. The bus is in the right lane…with NO stop sign or red light….. and I’ve seen hundreds of cars passing on the left. Honestly I’d be terrified to stop in the left lane 20 feet from the bus. I’d get rear ended at 40 mph.

S.R.

Yes you have to stop and so does opposing traffic. Unless it is divided with an island. The reason I know this is I just saw it on a news channel going over the rules

if I can take anything from reading through this post its that if what some of you say is true, that you see school bus drivers all acting in different ways when kids are boarding buses then I think this needs to be reported to the school districts! Regardless of the law, as a driver you should be cautious around school buses as others have mentioned. You wont see me going more than a mile an hour around a school bus. But the school bus driver is responsible for the operation of the bus and the children boarding and un-boarding safely. If they don’t know how to do this that’s the biggest problem in this whole scenario and warrants a call to whatever agency manages the drivers

Eelpoutguy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Steve Root wrote:</div>

Yes you have to stop and so does opposing traffic. Unless it is divided with an island. The reason I know this is I just saw it on a news channel going over the rules

So the sign on the back of the bus is not correct?

Maybe it should say you must stop for flashing yellow lights.

School buses have two sets of yellow lights. The lower set are the turn signal/hazard lights. When those are blinking, they will not be followed by the red lights and stop sign. The upper yellow lights are right next to the red lights. If those are blinking, you can know the red lights and stop sign are coming the instant the bus comes to a stop.

The purpose of the red lights and stop sign are to stop the traffic around the bus from stopping. They are not a signal to the children that it is safe to cross the street. Once the red lights and stop sign are engaged, the driver will give a hand signal to students that it is safe to cross. So, in that interpretation, you are incorrect.

Secondly, just like approaching an intersection with a stoplight that is yellow, you pushed it and the lights turned red. That’s on you and your anticipation. You took a risk of breaking the law, and it bit you. Now, if you believe the bus had not come to a complete stop, as in the wheels were still rolling, you may have an argument that the bus driver opened the door before the bus had come to a complete stop and the red lights were engaged before the bus stopped. If that’s the case, that’s your only hope. Otherwise, it’s the same as the stoplight. If you really want to fight it, I would ask if there is video proof from the bus company.

But I wouldn’t count on winning this one.

My wife did the exact same thing a couple years ago. Its not going to be pay a fine and good to go.
All I can say is if your going to fight it, good luck.
She had to take off work and do a ride along with the bus driver, take a class and pay the fine. This is a serious offense and they don’t take it lightly.

I don’t care if its not the law to have to stop with a bus flashing lights or not. In my thinking, you just don’t do that. A 2 lane may be different but I would slow down and proceed with caution if warranted. My time is not so precious over a child’s life.

It’s like a friend of mine gets caught sleeping on the job and gets 20 days suspension and blames the supervisor for checking up on him. Does not take responsibility for the fact he goes ice fishing at 6Am all day goes to a family function and gets no sleep knowing he has to work 12am to 8am.He is a bridge tender but it is the supervisors’ fault for catching him sleeping.

Hate it when people won’t own up to there mistakes and blames or make excuses for those mistakes.

Good video on the topic.

If my memory serves me correctly… the whole flashing yellow to flashing red was kind of Automatic… the driver pushed a button for the yellow lights to come on.. then when she would push the handle to open the door, the STOP sign AUTOMATICALLY came out and the lights changed to red. After closing the door, the Red lights stopped flashing and the sign retracted. How are some drivers letting kids on/off with this Auto system ? Is it rigged to bypass ? Seem to me, something that worked in the mid 80’s would still be in use today ? Anyone know how they currently work ?

Hey Dutchboy… Love ya but CLEARLY by the responses on this thread and especially Fishinfreaks words there is plenty of confusion as to what the lights mean and what will happen next. Countless times I’ve seen the yellows flashing and I sit behind them for minutes (in St.Cloud where there are 95 kids at each apartment stop) with no red and no stop sign. Feeling really stupid I sit and wait because I’m not taking any chances. I’m not sayin, I’m just sayin. Plenty of confusion out there with something that should be pretty darn simple!

It is simple.
If it’s yellow and you get around you are ok.
If it turns red you get cited.

Somewhere you need to factor 5 year olds with backpacks that weigh more then the kid darting out to get on the bus with their friends. I’m not passing judgement other then to say it seems deep down the OP knew the red lights were coming. Maybe I’m wrong. Doesn’t matter i didn’t get the ticket.

More time has been spent on this post than was saved by passing a School Bus with flashing lights. Seems like a good choice I guess.

Steve Root wrote:

On my way home I frequently see school buses loading and unloading kids with nothing displayed except yellow blinking lights. No red lights, no stop sign. They’re pulled over to the right, and cars are passing the bus on the left. I see this almost every day that school is in session.

I can see Dutch’s point about yellow warning drivers that the red is coming next, light a stop light. But these buses don’t turn on the red lights.

There seems to be some confusion about what the law really says, how drivers react, and what the bus drivers are doing. I’ll be interested to see how this one turns out too.

S.R.

This…I’ll also agree that you are screwed and no chance of winning but many many many times they just ride with yellow. I’ve actually been PASSED by a SCHOOL BUS with it’s yellow light flashing. I stopped…it kept going and passed me. That said, he got you when he kicked the stop sign out!

I’m curious, you looking for sympathy or support?

I don’t know, maybe it’s me, but flashing lights on a bus means take extra precaution and wait until there are no lights or children.