The golden hour problem

I’ve made a couple mid week trips to an awesome looking new snag I’ve found. Both times I landed multiple flatheads between 7:30 and 9:30, and had several more runs. But then it dies right off. I’ve stayed til 11:00 without another sign of life.

Now when I have more time on the weekend, I wondering how you guys handle what seems to be a consitant, productive spot.

Do you always go to your best spot during the best time? Do you spend the “golden hour” at a lesser spot and then try the better looking spot later?

Do you think a lot of flatheads leave a lot of different snags around 8:00? Is it worth it to sit on the best looking spot longer for the fish that decides to come out at 12:30? Do you move just for the sake of moving?

Is it the spot or the time of day?

I’ve changed my mind about 20 times already today.

I tend to be lazy and camp out on prime spots.. maybe longer than I should, but it fits my habits.. I am lazy.

All waters are differet, and the feed time varies. Here is a question, do the fish tend to feed later on your body of water ever? Is it just that spot that cuts off early, or is it a norm for that body of water?

If the fish do feed later on the norm, and dont feed later in that spot when they are feeding late in other spots.. you likely are fishing a key spot along what I call a fish highway. The fish are hitting that structure on the way to another feeding area scooping up what they can on the way.

Its just a theory is all. Waterways can be very different, even when in close proximity to each other.

Here is an example.. pools 1&2 of the Mississippi River. There isnt a dependable bite at that *golden hour*. Sometimes fish show up at dinnertime, more often they dont show until 10:30 or later at night… but the same spot can produce multiple big fish spread throughout the night.. in streaks earlier in the year, then singles com cruising through later in the year. There is no pattern to the size of the fish that generally bite around a given time.

Now, the Minnesota river in the lower regions is totally different… The fish will start early sometimes, but the twilight hour will produce fish 95% of the time on productive evenings and usually the largest fish are caught within an hour of actual darkness, or the majority. Often the bite shuts off about an hour after true darkness sets in, then the occasonal run in the middle of the night.. or sometimes nothing after prime time. Running and gunning will usually produce bites almost immediately if fish are around in the late night hours, if there is no bite immediately(15 minutes), usually no fish is caught in the period of a hour or so for me which is as long as I will stay when I am not being lazy.

Every waterway is different, and there is usually a pattern to peak feeding activity times.. not ccounting the days when the fis decide that they should eat at noon for some unknown reason.

I think it might depend on how close to the “snag” you are fishing as they may be using the snag during the day to hide out and at night they are going past your presentation on the way to feed on the flats, wingdams, etc. I bet if you stayed long enough (just before sunrise) you would see them picking up again on their return back to the daytime hide out. Just my thoughts.

I agree with the people above, You are getting fish in transition. There is probably a dandy feeding flat near where you are. Either that or the fish are able to get full quickly and are only active for a short time. Not very likely for fish as voratious as cats.

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they may be using the snag during the day to hide out and at night they are going past your presentation on the way to feed on the flats, wingdams, etc.

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That is what I think is going on.

What I ask myself is if I should stay there and wait for additional fish to either leave that structure or move through the area, or to move and target another spot even though it doesn’t look as good.

Time on the water, time on the water…

You probably should send me a PM of the exact location of this spot. I’ll give it a try for you with an written assesment the following day.

My opinion on spots….. there are 100’s of them. The best part of about fishing on a river is that there are more than can be fished. And the majority of them hold fish.
I’ve gone through the phase of camping. Which can be fun. Right now I’m in the phase try 2 new spots every time you get on the water. Sometimes you won’t even make it to your regular because your catching bigger and more fish.
Most people would agree that you should not be spending time traveling as the sun is going down and about 1/2 hour after dark…. Typically these are considered prime times for Flats when they start moving..

Good luck, oh yea don’t forget to PM that spot. GPS coords are okay.
I’m teasing Mate.

I tend not to run and gun. I figure it’s tough to catch anything without a bait in the water.

I do have the “other spot” disorder though (always thinking about the other spot).

It would be very interesting to monitor a bunch of boats at the same time, my guess is that “the magic hour” is happening in every boat.

The rule I am trying to enforce is that if I catch a little guy or even have a run and miss, is that I stay on that spot until I am done. I’ve had too many nights where I move from a spot and never see another run.

This is a good topic. You certainly know where some are at a certain time. Hard to pass up that spot at that time. I would scout and try to find what they are moving to. The feeding area is likely calling cats from both up and down stream and its probably less than a quarter of mile away. I agree with the flatcaster, if you wanted to PM the GPS coordinates I would be willing to help you find it.

“feeding area”

Do flats have a feeding area? If so, why wouldn’t we catch multiple fish in these areas? Someone would have certainly stumbled into one(?)

I have the belief that once a cat leaves it’s daytime “resting” spot…they are in their “feeding area” until they return. They don’t have a feeding area so to speak, that they are going to. Finding locations that are hiways is key to multiple fish nights IMHO (or moving).

Does that make sense?

To expand on this Brian, you got me thinking. You should be able to hear the little 3 legged squirrel running on the wheel

The flats are feeders of opportunity, as are most predators. If they are traveling to a feeding area, and come upon food (bait) they will eat. This is a given. They may then continue to the feeding area, or do not need more food, and head back to the daytime cover.

The struggle then would be to find these fish while they are in an active feeding area, as this would be the most consistent bite throughout the night and the fish should be feeding on anything they can find. These feeding areas should have the most fish in it, since they are pulling fish from different structures along the river. Is this right?

But each fish is problably not going to leave cover at the same time of night, so the most obvious spot to fish them is next to daytime cover. You would have a chance of them feeding on the way out or the way back. I think this is the area most fisherman target the fish.

So then the big question is……….

Has anyone found out how to find these feeding areas, and which type of areas would these fish be feeding in?

Are they standard feeding areas, or are the fish covering vast areas of water each night eating whatever they find along the way and we stumble upon a fish?

Would finding these feeding areas provide better, more consistent action then cover areas?

I can smell the smoke up here at Everts!

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or are the fish covering vast areas of water each night eating whatever they find along the way and we stumble upon a fish?

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That sums up my thoughts.

I see you working. The area I learned on has no wood to speak of. No snags to concentrate on. After fishing with not much luck for a while I became discouraged. Where does one start in all that water? I knew the fish were there. It is true that once darkness hits they become more agressive and will eat wherever they are. I also think it is true in the absense of wood cover they lay in deeper spots with the cover at hand. I also think it true that where they have found a meal in the past, they are likely to return. So if you can find the resting areas which are pretty easy to find. On my pool 9 haunts that is anywhere with over 30 feet of water. I doubt many gills, shad or crayfish go there (for long). The closest likely place for bait to the resting area gives you a ball park. I consider this tactic like learning one bay first on a large lake. You can hit them on the head during the day in the resting zone. You can ambush them on the way to where you think the easy meal is (What RB is doing). Or you can fish right on the feeding area. My favorite one is a 5 foot shelf at a bend in the river near a deep hole. Shad pile up here and I have seen bass go nuts on them. The bite there is pretty consistent but not before 10:00. For me I start at 4:00 in the deep water, move to approaches just before dark. If I don’t get hit a few times, I move to the shelf. This has produced many multiple fish nights for me. I defer to your advanced knowledge. My tactics might not work on skinnier water but I think they do.

There are some good telemetry studies available in past Catfish Insider magazines which talks about these behaviors. I do believe the minute they leave the daytime hideouts they are willing to eat however according to the studies they have repeated and consistent paths they travel when they leave the daytime hideouts which would make me think there are “prime” feeding areas they seek out. Flats (and most predator fish) don’t get big by spending alot of time “just cruising” for food, they find ways to keep the hunt a high percentage situation with expending the least amount of energy to obtain the nutrition. Good topic.

Oh Brian, To better answer your question. I would say your haven’t found the feeding area. There certainly is nothing wrong with concentrating on transitioning fish.

In response to Farm,

How do you find the feeding areas. This is the hard part no doubt. They often don’t look catty at all. Trial and error comes to mind. If you can find panfish that is a good clue. the white bass and smallies popping the shad against the bank is another. Trees loaded with fish flies at certain times of the year is another. I fish this one slough that has wood and snags everywhere. It is hard to fish, you get snagged up all the time. One night we camped on a little point there and through out some baits from the shore. We weren’t on the snags but in a little narrow between the slough channel and a weedy lilly pad backwater. We caught 10 fish that night in transition from the snags to the lily pads in 2-3 feet of water. It is still one of my favorite camping spots.

Advanced knowledge? Keep the stink bait on the hook Kev!

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Flats (and most predator fish) don’t get big by spending alot of time “just cruising” for food, they find ways to keep the hunt a high percentage situation with expending the least amount of energy to obtain the nutrition.

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We have Jason Volknoun’s complete disertation posted here someplace…I think Dtro read it first page to last…last year.

The term “just cruising” is a little too tight for my thought. I think…when they leave the daytime resting locations, they follow high percentage paths like current seams, riprap sand transitions and shallows. I would say that the shallows would be a “feeding area”…but I don’t think they stop…they just move through there on their hunt for the next meal.

Maybe I’m hung up on the definition of “feeding area”.

Brian, I totally agree. They have found routes or paths which are high percentage feeding opportunities and i am sure these will change somewhat with the changing baitfish trends of the seasons. Judging by your sucess catching great Flats i have to think you are in high percentage areas. I seem to have a good understanding of habits of Flats on paper but seem to lose it once in the field. Alot of the time I have the “other spot” syndrome that DTRO talked about and reading about successful Catmen i see if they know an area is good they will stick it out waiting patiently.

A few more details about my specific dilema.

I scouted about 10 miles of new river. I found the biggest wood snag. It is big. I anchor just above it and get 80% of the runs on the rods with baits placed nearest the mid-river part of the snag. Like they come out around the snag, near the main channel, when it is dinner time.

This cover is big enough to house multiple flatheads. But it could also be other fish from other cover moving through this spot. Since the wood extends about half way across the river the travel area is constricted. That is why I stay after the golden hour bite.

I don’t want to be a “one spot wonder” but it is hard not to go there as long as I keep getting a fish or two. But I wonder is the golden hour bite better somewhere else, since this is a new river to me.

Now I’ll probably get skunked this weekend.

My lake presentation is based on the same thing. I found one of the feeding areas on Lake Mendota, and I haven’t left that spot in 3 years. The fish keep coming and coming. Granted, I haven’t turned fishing into my job or gotten to the point where I can’t learn from others. i would consider a 2 hundred yard weed edge a feeding area. I certainly am not talking about a 10 foot square spot with an X on it. If your going to play golf you need to be able to find the golf course but you’ll catch more golfers at the 19th hole.

“the minute they leave the daytime hideouts they are willing to eat however according to the studies they have repeated and consistent paths they travel when they leave the daytime hideouts which would make me think there are “prime” feeding areas they seek out. Flats (and most predator fish) don’t get big by spending alot of time “just cruising” for food, they find ways to keep the hunt a high percentage situation with expending the least amount of energy to obtain the nutrition.”

Exactly

Flatheads absolutely have prime feeding areas, without a doubt. I am 100% certain. This area might be the size of the average back yard, or it might be 3 key small areas within 100 yards of shoreline.

I am convinced when these fish move a long ways, they are searching for better hunting grounds and stay there(near) when they find it. Just think of how much food an area would have to hold to support 100 flatheads. I have had many 10 fish nights in the past give or take, so have others, and I have heard of more caught in the course of a night on a couple occasions at a location. These locations were never fishing tight to a snag, but they were prime larger feeding areas. I cant think I caught every fish in the area on the best nights.

Coincidence or not, both the areas I have had these nights in the past, and the other area I know has produced many of these nights.. the fish had 1 way in and that was the same way they had to go out.

And judging by my lack of success (30 lbs biggest) it would explain this theory since i usually find myself fishing too close to snags but its mostly because i’m learning how to read the river and the snags are the most obvious to seek out. But also with three kids under 6 and 2 hour travel time each way i don’t have alot of time on the water to practice and learn the river like i would like to find these better areas.

I don’t know how this fits into the discussion, but I believe one of the advantages of flats feeding in shallower, calmer feeding areas is the prey is easy to catch. You ever notice on a lake if you shine a flash light or spot light in the shallows at night, you find scattered fish that appear to be “sleeping”. They are usually not in any cover and are not easily spooked. I think that gives a flathead all the advantage he needs and he doesn’t have to expend much energy cruising and searching for these resting fish. I also think they would have a hard time because of their size and how they are built to pick off prey in heavy cover or wood.

Any flatman worth his salt will be thinking “what if” all the time as he goes out and tries various things. Being in one place means not being in others. I’ve done it both ways. My first big cat (47#) came after three hours of nothing in one spot. My nephew’s second biggest (45#) came ten minutes after a move. His biggest (49#) came after three hours of nothing in one spot.

If they’re not biting, you are going to say “what if”. Can’t be helped. My advice, have unusual patience in about half your trips, run and gun on the others, get out every chance you can, then compare. The other side of “what if” is when you move and wonder if they’re just coming out in the spot you just left – what if I just left the best chance I’ll have all year?

You can drive yourself nuts. Realize also that really big cats probably do not move every night. They’ve found good resting spots and they don’t leave them until they’re hungry. In general they come later than the little ones, in my experience. They come in that “nothing” time after the rush. That’s a rule with plenty of exceptions, though. Aren’t they all?

My other advice, fish around with worms on the bottom before the golden hour. Some spots are stacked with baitfish. Figure out where that baitfish will try to seek cover at night and fish between the resting spots and those places. I’ve got cats in places that couldn’t be anything but feeding spots – no cover in hundreds of yards. Generally the little ones will arrive first in these places. The problem with fishing AT them, if you find them, is that you run the risk of cats filling up before they find your bait. Best case scenario is a place that funnels them between resting and feeding. Also – shine the water on your way home, look for baitfish concentrations.

I’m a big believer in following the bait – big fish get that way by wasting as little energy as possible eating as much as possible.

This is a super interesting post. I love it!

So sometimes people say that if you’re catching small cats, you should move if you want a bigger one, because they really don’t hang out together. Does this general rule only apply to the daytime hiding spots like snags and holes? On a feeding area, moving due to small cats seems like the exact opposite of what you’d want to do. If you’re on a shallow medium-low current spot with tons of baitfish, ‘eyes, white bass, sheepshead, etc around, and you’re catching flatheads, how could there not be big ones there?

In general, one would prefer he earliest possible indication of whether their ‘new spot’ holds flatheads or not so they could move if need-be. What better early confirmation is there than catching of some little guys? From that point on, I would think if you’re not catching large ones, the best advice would be to a) wait it out or b) maybe experiment with larger or smaller baits.

I can’t imagine in my head a large flathead saying “well gee, I know there’s tons of food here, and I can see that it’s easy to eat and all of you young pups have a great time eating here, but I’m going to cruise elsewhere and find the ‘large cat’ feeding area.” I guess one possibility that I can think of is that the bigger fish can’t find bigger food in that particular feeding area, but heck, I would think they’d just eat the smaller flatheads if nothing else! (not the 10 pounders, but the 1 pounders maybe?!).

With panfish and walleyes and other ‘school’ fish, I definitely agree with the schooled by size theory, but are flatheads even remotely similar in that behavior? Aren’t they loners?

Many people think they are loners, I think they are only loners when spawning is involved. I have seen too many flats caught to quickly in short time frame to believe it is only a coincidence… other times its one fish here, one fish there.

I really dont think they steer clear of one another come feeding time. The only way they stay clear is if they are pushed away from a fish protecting a nest. The best fishing time is usually the time leading up to the spawn.. audemp caught the 1st I seen(in pics) this year with wounds, so it might be the start of that time. The fishing is generally great until the spawn starts, then it declines dramaticly almost overnight. Fish are still caught, but one here, two there, none here.

If the fish audemp caught suggest pre spawn activity, we will be seeing lots of beat up fish in the next few weeks.. its still pretty early.

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I can’t imagine in my head a large flathead saying “well gee, I know there’s tons of food here, and I can see that it’s easy to eat and all of you young pups have a great time eating here, but I’m going to cruise elsewhere and find the ‘large cat’ feeding area.” I guess one possibility that I can think of is that the bigger fish can’t find bigger food in that particular feeding area, but heck, I would think they’d just eat the smaller flatheads if nothing else! (not the 10 pounders, but the 1 pounders maybe?!).

With panfish and walleyes and other ‘school’ fish, I definitely agree with the schooled by size theory, but are flatheads even remotely similar in that behavior? Aren’t they loners?

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Doesn’t really go that way.
Bait fish are a stage that attracts fish. small, big and bigger.
When big fish enters the area. The smaller and small and medium. (the biggest don’t really concern them selves with the smallest)usually move on, sometimes not far.
Fish if they are smart…. instictually will clear out the moment that they become aware of a big fish. Only the stupid and injured hang around and the laws of natural selection exterminate them from the fish pool.
So if your catching small fish, there is a possibility that you can catch a really big one, but again usually They will vacate the area for fear of becoming dinner.

I agree this is a good post to compare thoughts.

Last night kind of threw the rules out the window. We first fished snags up to the “golden hour” then spent primetime in the rocks, at 11 we hit some edges of deeper eddies, then went back to a middepth snag. One run with one nice fish. Where and when?
The last place we hit, the middepth snag at about 12am and it was pretty tight to the snag as well.

Fish and learn…learn and fish.

For a second I thought we were going to get into the heated schooling argument! And no, let’s not revisit that.

I agree with Dave that too many are caught in a short time period. It may just be that they are using the same route and that there is some trigger that gets them to move at the same time. But they are in the same area. I personally have noticed that fish under 20#s seem to come in spurts. Bear in mind I am still trying to break 20# so that really doesn’t mean alot about bigger fish. But I have seen other people on the board get spurts where a big one 30#+ was caught with littler ones. I believe that happened to Hanson this year.

However I would think that small flats, especially 10#s and under are very aware and cautious when a 30#+ flat is in the area and may even use good “judgment” and vacate an area if they are vulnerable.

One thing I will point out with certainty because it is based on a study and not my experience is that smaller cats tend to feed on crayfish and other smaller animals while the big ones are almost exclusive fish eaters. I have also come across studies that say they are cannibals and will eat small flatheads. I think if you are close to the breeding season, as we are now, the more I might be willing to move if I caught littler flats. They just get too aggressive and won’t tolerate small flats in my opinion.

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Aren’t they loners?

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During spawn males are loners…as they will attack and/or eat anything that comes close…even the females. I really don’t know what the female habits are at that time. Other times they seem to “put up” with each other. Two, three fish can be caught out of a hole/snag during the pre prespawn…and in the winter they are stacked very close to each other. Guess they just like to be alone when raising the kids.

Two years ago a friend and I were fishing an area that had a trough and shallowed up to the bank. We fished mostly in 6 feet of water or less. He said that he’s seen larger cats come into the shallows so far, their backs were out of the water…and I said to myself..”maybe so, a once in a life time experiance”. Thought no more about it.

A few nights later, my mouth dropped when I used the spot light to see what this racoon (I thought)was doing…here it was the back of a twenty something flat up in the mud and weeds. The spotlight didn’t bother it…but about 15 minutes later when I tossed a bullhead in there…he sure made a noise leaving.
Since this I’ve seen two other flats do the same thing in two differant ares.
I guess these fish were at feeding areas…but I still believe from my limited experiance that they were cruising snapping up anything they could find until he found this spot with something he liked…minnows I’m guessing as there were a lot of them along shore.

I spose in loose terms this 6 foot deep area could be called a feeding area. Maybe that’s what’s throughing me off. Feeding area to me is like a dinner table…you sit down and eat in one place.

Anyway, here’s a report of fish all caught in this area without moving to point out size. Notice the mention of a couple 5ers.

Report from 6/26/05