The DNR on Flatheads

Exactly BK!!!

Pug, I support spearing….as long as the fishery can support it…

I compaired trots too spearing as a traditional thing…as I also believe that spearing can take many of the big fish out of the lake. (don’t know nutten about spearing on rivers.)

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I’m not quite sure why MN has such strict angling regulations on catfish, maybe its because its MN.

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Its why we have some of the best fishiers for many species in the nation. Many people come to our state to take advantage of outstanding fishing, Given the amount of anglers and pressure put on the MN fishiers we have learned through hard experience what can happen when no regs are implemented or enforced. Other states don’t have the regs and there for don’t have the fishing opportunities, so they come where its good. I have no problem as long as its all done legal.

As far as the Spearing and trotlines. I’m failing to see the similarity and or comparison. Both in numbers participating in the practice and numbers of fish harvested.
Maybe there is more to it.
please feel free to elaborate on that train of thought.
thanks
Larry

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If Iowa is next to outlaw multiple hooks, lines, trots, jugs, limblines, setlines, bankpoles, etc, where does it stop? The entire SE part of the country has absolutely no limit on flathead catfish and allows harvesting them by any means or bait possible. And people do, with regularity. Its nothing to pop into other catfish forums and read about successful nights of catfishing with pickup boxes full of flathead cats. Its a different mentality, thats for sure. Folks eat them.

I’m not quite sure why MN has such strict angling regulations on catfish, maybe its because its MN.

All I can say is that attitudes are changing, among many people.

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Yeah well they have warmer weather and a lot more rivers in the South. There isn’t a comparison there it is apples and oranges. Even huge places like Sante Cooper feel fishing the effects of greedy fishermen over time. If it happens to tens of thousands of acres of water what about a 50 yard wide river?

MN inland flat waters are pretty small. They need to be regulated more. They have a much more proactive natural resources department than Iowa does and in this case that is cool. If you let the river rats that live by me come up there and fish with bank poles they would eat everything they caught, in the face of consumption advisories and common sense. Would that make fishing better in any way? Have you ever seen people put baby flats in a bucket and hear them say they caught some nice bullheads?

If you post a pickup box full of flathead pics you will get flamed out of a lot of catfish forums.

I’m sorry I sound gruff. I wish I could take people out and catch a big fish and convert them into thinking R&R flatheads was a cool thing but there aren’t enough around me to do that. Like you said hansen, attitudes are changing but when that happens it sucks to live in the backwards state.

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Pug, I support spearing….as long as the fishery can support it…

I compaired trots too spearing as a traditional thing…as I also believe that spearing can take many of the big fish out of the lake. (don’t know nutten about spearing on rivers.)

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Brian, your too soft. You’d probably let me fish with dynamite if the fisheries could support it!

Just kidding BK, I understand why you brought spearing up now after you explained.

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I’m in favor of trot lines. I’m in favor of winter spearing.

IF the fishery can support it.

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The problem, of course, is that even in the best of circumstances (i.e. places where this issue has been specifically researched) it isn’t known if and for how long a “fishery” can support such practices. And when that is the case, as it is, I will always be in favor of erring on the side of caution.

I put fishery in quotes because it’s likely that in terms of catfish populations you might find that trotlining can be sustainable, but in terms of trophy fisheries, it might not – it all depends on what you consider a healthy “fishery”. If the purpose of the fishery is to provide a sustainable, renewable quantity of meat perpetually, trotlining – when well regulated – may very well be just fine and dandy. But as for what it does to a sport fishery – to the ability of sport anglers to go out and catch quality fish year after year – that may be a completely different story.

So what it comes down to is political will, and where trotlining is entrenched and traditional, there is a political will to keep things that way. Here – where there is a huge sportfishing and tourist industry – the political will is all about managing for sportfishing opportunity. Catfish are being seen as legitimate sportfishing quarry more now than ever before, so the momentum might be changing everywhere to some extent, but until the dollar value from sport catfishing is seen as considerable, nobody will pay attention to what happens to cats.

This is why we need to talk and share these ideas here – we need to actually be a political entity that someone pays attention to. For years catfishermen were like small farmers were – independent and isolated, with very little political clout. I’m not delusional enough to think that we’ll ever be major political players as a group, but in the tiny little arena that concerns us, being in contact with one another makes us a group that can be heard on various issues. Procats and members of this forum have organized catfishermen to lobby where their states’ laws have affected them. Good. Let’s keep our eyes open and keep that up!

Cha-ching!

Hit the nail on the head Matt!

Can’t argue with reason! Good points!

Flathead,

You always seem to put together very well written, thought out posts on subjects like this. Great response, and I love your website, lots of good infor for us new guys

Bravo! FlatheadWi

Maybe the real problem is the large posession limits allowed by certain states and not the method of taking. A trotliner who catches 30 fish can still only keep their limit of 15 or whatever the limit is, right? Same as for a pole angler. Why not have the states like Iowa and Wisconsin lower their posession limits? The majority of trotlines used today I believe are set with circle hooks. So I think the fish are in no worse shape than if they were caught by an angler. Fish caught on trotlines can be released too. I think running trotlines would not be as easy and unsportsmanlike as some of you think. There would be plenty of hard work involved in it. Probably more work than angling. It a different means of fishing, and yes they are fisherman, not anglers, but they are fisherman like it or not.

Possibly, but realistically catch and possession limits are set higher than any expectation that the typical angler will reach them consistently. A trotliner will reach a 15 fish limit much more consistently than a rod and reel angler – so the methods do definitely matter.

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Maybe the real problem is the large posession limits allowed by certain states and not the method of taking. A trotliner who catches 30 fish can still only keep their limit of 15 or whatever the limit is, right? Same as for a pole angler. Why not have the states like Iowa and Wisconsin lower their posession limits? The majority of trotlines used today I believe are set with circle hooks. So I think the fish are in no worse shape than if they were caught by an angler. Fish caught on trotlines can be released too. I think running trotlines would not be as easy and unsportsmanlike as some of you think. There would be plenty of hard work involved in it. Probably more than work than angling. It a different means of fishing, and yes they are fisherman, not anglers, but they are fisherman like it or not.

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So by this logic is a gill net still considered fishing? There is a lot of work involved with that too.

I’m also not sold on the idea of releasing trotline fish. If the fish has been hooked and struggling for 8 hours, I would think it would be very fatigues and stressed.

Still, why not lower the limit to within reason instead of attacking the trotliners for using something that works? If people are catching too many fish, lower the limit. The posession limit for flatheads in Minnesota is 2 with one over 24″. I’d have my limit every night if I kept fish.

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Maybe the real problem is the large posession limits allowed by certain states and not the method of taking. A trotliner who catches 30 fish can still only keep their limit of 15 or whatever the limit is, right? Same as for a pole angler. Why not have the states like Iowa and Wisconsin lower their posession limits? The majority of trotlines used today I believe are set with circle hooks. So I think the fish are in no worse shape than if they were caught by an angler. Fish caught on trotlines can be released too. I think running trotlines would not be as easy and unsportsmanlike as some of you think. There would be plenty of hard work involved in it. Probably more than work than angling. It a different means of fishing, and yes they are fisherman, not anglers, but they are fisherman like it or not.

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So by this logic is a gill net still considered fishing? There is a lot of work involved with that too.

I’m also not sold on the idea of releasing trotline fish. If the fish has been hooked and struggling for 8 hours, I would think it would be very fatigues and stressed.

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I dont think gillnetting is legal except in commercial fishing (which is heavily regulated) so my logic is based on whats legal for everyday fisherman. Trotlines are legal in many states. If too many fish are being taken, lower the limit and put a size restriction on fish.

Also, fish caught on trotlines are quite lively and can be released just fine.

Sorry for going with the gillnet analogy – I just don’t like trotlines. I guess I have only been exposed to people using them illegaly and irresponsibly.

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I guess I have only been exposed to people using them illegaly and irresponsibly.

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I think the trotlines are way to diverse of a discussion to try to answer in this email, but here goes my response anyways

The problem as I see it is trotlines are a kill only method. Sure you can say you released fish, and they were unharmed, but how can you know this for sure. The recent bass tournament and numerous other studies have shown an extremely high incidence of delayed mortality in all species of fish. This is mainly brought on by stress.

Trot lines bring out a high rate of stress, as the fish are left to fight the line for the entire night. In a best case scenario about an hour. Does this increase the fishes chance of delayed mortality. You bet it does. Is this good for the fishery, Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Now I come from a long line of Catch and Release fisherman (Dad doesn’t fish, so just me ), and my personal philosophy may enter into this subject, but I do not believe trotlines, juglines, nets, or even commercial fishing have a place in “modern” day sport fishing. In my mind it is just glorified “meat pole” pictures from years past deer hunting.

My other problem with trotlines is the large chance of misuse. I am sure there are many who follow the rules, attend to their lines, and do their best to not harm the fishery, but I feel they are few and far between. As all cat men know, there are very few, if any, boaters on the waters from about 10 pm to first daylight. The people who are can do whatever they want without being seen. This just makes it easier for them to do something illegal, or not do it “right”.

OOOOOahhhh, (that was a deep breath), and I am now going to get off my soapbox. This topic gets me going on so many things I don’t think are right, and really stems from my walleye fishing/natives netting theories. The mismanagement of a valuable resorce can not happen or our children will suffer.

Sorry for the rant I do not mean to directly attack anyone, so please do not take these words as such, they are only meant to make others think, and right or wrong, they are my true feelings.

Brent

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Still, why not lower the limit to within reason instead of attacking the trotliners for using something that works? If people are catching too many fish, lower the limit. The posession limit for flatheads in Minnesota is 2 with one over 24″. I’d have my limit every night if I kept fish.

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Tim you are on target and to the point but without some articulation and debate it is hard to interact with the public and change attitudes. I’ve literally seen a dozen threads about the distaste of these meat methods of fishing and most of the time they degenerate into “if you mess with someone’s stuff you can get shot”. That is a bad way for these arguements to go and thankfully this place is above that.

I don’t think anyone is attacking people except slobs. The backwards people that should be attending to the laws though, they are fair game.

A limit of 2 doesn’t sound like a lot but hopefully a guy with a family of 6 isn’t fishing your stretch of the little river whom also has a taste for 30 pounders because there is more meat on them.

You guys are right, it is the battle of The Trophy vs Fishsticks mentality.

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The posession limit for flatheads in Minnesota is 2 with one over 24″. I’d have my limit every night if I kept fish.

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You’d also be busted with the way you worded that. Possesion. Not daily limit. Is two. Unless your are eating 40 pounds of flatty a night, you are in the wrong.

He’s a growing boy Machinehead.

I don’t think a seal eats that much fish.

Regarding mortality rates for fish (again, channel cat and walleye are targeted by trotliners around here, in addition to flathead) caught on setlines, I have heard reports that fish who fight against set lines for hours (legally, they can be on there for up to twenty-three hours and fifty-nine minutes) being found dead or dying when lines are checked. Supposedly, when trotlines aren’t checked more than once a day it is not unusual to find fish that have been partially eaten by muskrat or snapping turtle, as the fish were too exhausted to defend themselves. I have also been told that fish caught on trotlines often wear quarter-sized holes in their jaws from fighting against the hook. I have not seen any of this for myself, nor have I seen any official confirmation of it, so it is only hearsay.

At the same time, I find these reports plausible, as I have never seen a fish immediately give up when hooked on rod and reel, and I doubt that fish on trotlines would give up fighting until they were unable to do so anymore due to exhaustion or injury. I’ve seen fish of all species fight themselves to exhaustion in minutes or less on rod and reel, and I don’t believe it is a stretch to assume the same would happen after hours of fighting against nylon cord attached to PVC pipe, car radio antennas, or a heavy tree root.

I think the C and R argument is largely irrelevant when talking about trotlines, though, because I have never in six years in Iowa met a trotliner who released anything they caught. Some of the stories I mentioned above were told to me by trotliners as reasons why it is pointless to release fish taken on setlines.

So what’s the ratio of trotliners to polebender types there?

So maybe some of this discussion is relative. Some Googling revealed this: http://whiskerkitty.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/4796067322

Note: this is just a link I found by random searching, but note the limits, etc. down there and some of the comments.

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The posession limit for flatheads in Minnesota is 2 with one over 24″. I’d have my limit every night if I kept fish.

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You’d also be busted with the way you worded that. Possesion. Not daily limit. Is two. Unless your are eating 40 pounds of flatty a night, you are in the wrong.

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I think you’re missing my point, Machinehead. I said IF I kept fish I could catch a limit every night. IF! It’s hypothetical . Nobody can fish every night (except maybe Brian) much less eat fish everynight. Anyways, my point was that fisherman can reach the possesion limit pretty easily in Minnesota with a 2 fish limit. Two 24 inch fish would be a limit. Two 5lb fish. That’s not alot. Yes they could keep a 40lb fish too, which I think is wrong unless youre starving to death, but they are not caught that often. Thats a fish of a lifetime for most. The average fish is 5-15 pounds. I like Minnesota’s limit on flatheads. I think other states should follow in that respect. One thing I don’t like about MN law is that only one line is legal on inland waters. This does not make sense to me especially because most fisherman practice catch and release. What harm could having an extra line or two have when the limit is two bleeping fish? The possesion limit does not change when you have 3 lines out.

Well back to trotlines… until it’s proven that trotlines kill fish, create wanton waste, and hurt a fishery when used LEGALLY, I dont think they should be blamed for harming a fishery. Remember, there are anglers using fishing poles that break the law in the middle of the night as well. Why can’t we outlaw fishing poles too? Hypothetically of course…

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Well back to trotlines… until it’s proven that trotlines kill fish, create wanton waste, and hurt a fishery when used LEGALLY, I dont think they should be blamed for harming a fishery. Remember, there are anglers using fishing poles that break the law in the middle of the night as well. Why can’t we outlaw fishing poles too? Hypothetically of course…

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I do believe that legal setlines are harming the flathead fishery in Iowa, for the reasons I have stated. Setlines allow anglers to take far more fish in a season than anyone who fishes with rod and reel. Trotliners can run fifteen baits twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, which no rod and reel guy can possibly do, and there are trotliners around Iowa City who do just that. It would be difficult for a rod and reel guy to catch fifteen flathead in one day in Iowa or Minnesota, but far easier for a setliner to do the same. I believe that over-harvest of large flathead by setlines is a problem in Iowa, and I suspect in the end that the IDNR will reach this same conclusion. Whether they will do anything about it is another issue altogether.

I am not the only person in Iowa who suspects flathead numbers are declining, which is why the IDNR initiated the study in the first place–quite a few flathead fisherman believe as I do, and most have been fishing in Iowa longer than I have.

As I mentioned in my previous post, trotliners themselves say they don’t release fish, and trotliners themselves say that most fish taken on setlines would die if released anyway. Their defense of trot-lines takes three forms: one is the afore-mentioned “It’s a tradition in Iowa and I want to take my kids trotlining like my dad took me” defense, which is not a legitimate defense at all, because being traditional does not equal being good or beneficial to anything.

The second defense is to say there are no problems with flathead populations, and that taking ten or fifteen flathead per day out of a river does no harm to the population. They have no data to back that up, and as mentioned previously a lot of flathead fishermen in Iowa believe otherwise. I have better luck fishing for flathead in Minnesota where there are no legal trotlines, which bolsters my stance on this issue.

The third defense (the “fishsticks” school of thought)is that flathead taste good, and they don’t care if there are fewer large flatheads, so long as they can keep putting several hundred pounds of filets from ever-smaller fish on the table each summer. (I am not stretching that figure–I have talked to trotliners who brag about keeping literally hundreds of pounds of catfish per year. One big extended family, neighborhood, or church fish fry puts them on the right side of the thirty catfish possession limit.) This last defense is valid, if all you care about is putting food on the table. It goes back to the “trophy” vs. “fishsticks” issue once again. As it is, I think that Iowa has its regulations stacked too far on the “fishsticks” side of the argument when it comes to catfish. Currently, there is no effort to develop and maintain a trophy flathead fishery anywhere in the state.

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Supposedly, when trotlines aren’t checked more than once a day it is not unusual to find fish that have been partially eaten by muskrat or snapping turtle, as the fish were too exhausted to defend themselves.

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I am sorry, I just found this funny. Even if they weren’t exhausted, it’s pretty tough to defend yourself when you are hooked on a line.

Vike, I wish I was so good with words. I like to come here to see pictures and read about the big fish that the rest of these guys have to play with. I’ve been out maybe 30-40 times this year and I got one so far and I ain’t showin no pictures Lots of channels compared to last year, 100 or so but pretty sad on the bigwhiskers department. I passed up pride about 20 trips ago.

Vikefan I understand your thoughts on this. Although I think you are exagerating somewhat about numbers of fish caught and consumed, I agree with you that someone keeping a limit of 15 fish seven nights a week would be bad. Probably 15 fish a week would be bad. I think everyone agrees on that. I’ll raise my original point one last time…

Trotline states should lower their high possesion limits and enforce the law instead of jumping the gun and making trotlines illegal. If in fact trotlines are deemed lethal, lower the amount of trotlines allowed to maybe 2 or 3.

I am done

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but I have to side with Tim on this situation. I think if there is a problem with declining numbers then the daily and possesion limits or numbers of lines/hooks/etc need to be addressed rather than the method of taking the fish.

It seems like the people that are against using trotlines or setlines want to automatically assume that using that method to take fish is poaching. If someone is bragging about how many they have taken and if they have taken more than the limit, then they are poachers, which is a problem with the person, not the method. Sure it would be pretty damn hard to reach a daily limit on rod and reel, but it wouldn’t be too difficult for someone to get a possession limit and/or surpass it over the course of a week or less if they really tried. How is it any different to take and keep 30 fish by rod and reel in a week or take and keep 30 fish by trotline in a week???