The DNR on Flatheads

I think the DNR need to update their thinking on the Flathead…

One thing that is interesting is that everyone (Except Pug ) who fishes for them on this site beats the DNR’s listed average fish.

The Flathead Catfish

In your experience do you think the Flathead just “sits on the bottom” waiting for fish to swim by? Or do you think they go hunt their prey. I dont think they get that big and are that powerful by sitting on the bottom of the river day and night waiting for some dinner to come by, I think they are hunters going short distances from their “homes” to seek and destroy whatever is swimming in the area.

It’s official. I am the catfish section official nancy boy!

There are times when they’ll just sit on the bottom, like winter. Or perhaps when they are digesting a 10# walleye. After reading that little section, I want to read the studies on their migration. I do wonder if the big ones don’t move less or window of daily activity is shorter than the younger ones.

I have no personal experience to go on to flush out what might be the difference in activity/movement/feeding between the bigger 30#+ to the smaller ones.

Good subject!

I have no data…just opinion on my part…or some might say..bs on my part….

I think the largest cats have the best “spot” for feeding/resting. They doen’t get that big by haveing to work for their food. I would think the more they move..the more energy they spend and the more they have to eat…or they’ll loose weight.

I think the average is right on. I don’t know if anyone else has kept track of their catches, but I looked at my last 270 flatheads, and the average was right around 12 pounds. It’s slightly better sometimes, depending on the type of year I’m having, but this year is about my best – average wise – and its at 16. Only 5% of my cats are over 30.

The true population average would have to be much lower, though – we’re basically not counting anything under about 4 pounds because we’re just not catching them – their habits are different. I get one every now and then worm fishing – but they don’t go on my flathead list. Got one about six inches the other day. That size group has to represent the highest numbers of flats in a typical year, too. Putting those in would really drive the average down.

I don’t think they’re quite as immobile as the article suggests, or most of us would rarely catch any since we rely on them finding our bait. I catch a few when I’m moving my baits, but generally my bait is out in one spot for some time before it’s found by a moving cat. This is true of big and small ones. I think the big ones are in spots where they don’t have to move as far, but they’re still moving around some.

What do you think of the possibility of flats “schooling” around feeding time?

It might explain when you catch a bunch of flats in a very short period of time out of one spot and then suddenly nothing?

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study where they tag flats with a sensor that could trace their paths over a course of a year or so, it would be interesting to see the results of that.

Matt, I finally remember to tape one!

39lbs

48 L

26 G (Edited)

Aud…do a search for Jason Volknoun’s dissertation. It was done in MS a few years back…That sucker will keep you reading for weeks. Pay close attention to the radio tracking section.

It’s in the forum…and I would find it for you…but I have to check the breath of the leeches and clean behind the ears of the bullies down here at Evert’s.

Wow, you check the breath of each one of those leeches? Do you put your ear up to the sucker part and listen or just look for their chest to inflate with each breath?

And I am pretty sure bullheads don’t have ears Brian. Stop spreading rumors!

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you check the breath of each one of those leeches?

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YUP! I follow orders…once I’m done with the breath thing I have to put a price sticker on them. You ever tried to put a sticker on a leech? It’s hard!

No ears?? I think Dean must have been BSing me! The other thing I thought was odd is that he wants me to check the tempurature of the night cralwers. They just don’t seem the same when I pull the thermometer out of them.

I didnt read the article yet, but I will comment on some of the replies already made.

As for flatheads feeing in schools.. I know they do in some areas, there is no other explanation. I am known for shorefishing and I am not running and gunning, and I am never alone. The *usual group* is about 4 people… Now, when you start fishng at 7:30 and the 1st run comes at 9:00.. that is not substancial, but when a series of runs, often simutaniously(sp?) happen at 10:00, or several runs within 15 minutes.. how can I think that the fish are not schooling? That is way too much of a coincdence when it happens on a regular basis.

Many of the areas I fish are not the feeding area, they are transition areas or the *fish highways* between the daytime holes and the feeding areas.

The average size of flatheads.. its probably in the teens somewhere overall. There are some areas that the average fish is as large as 30 pounds(and you would be really surprised to know where ), but other areas a person is hard pressed to see a 20# fish, and once in 10 years a 30# fish shows up.

This only supports Brians theory of the largest fish being in the best of feeding areas. Whether these fish move far on a daily basis, I tend to think they do. For example, the spot I know with the numbers of large fish is not very deep(12′) with an inlet that pumps in warm water. The entire river channel is roughly the same depth with very little structure, and heavy traffic. There are very substancial holes and structure in both directions.. but a good 1/3-1/2 mile away. The deep holes and good structure a distance away are very good fishing areas, but there are assorted sizes of fish, with the majority being caught this year being in the low teens or smaller, with one fish that hit the 30# mark.

What am I getting at here? I am really not sure to be honest, but it is a piece of the puzzle and if we can figure it out we would be more successful more often. The *big* fish do not stay on the structure all day, they dissapear and there is nowhere to go for quite some distance. The main river channel is not very deep and barges are running it all day.. I cant believe the fish are sitting out there when the barge drafts 9′ and the river is only 12′ deep. The shorline is all moderately deep, but why would they retreat to other areas of the shoreline and move away from the prime feeding area that is sheltered?

Man, it’d be nice to don scuba gear with about a weeks worth of oxygen and get some goggles that could see through muddy water. I bet that it would be pretty amzing to follow around a flathead for a week.

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Man, it’d be nice to don scuba gear with about a weeks worth of oxygen and get some goggles that could see through muddy water. I bet that it would be pretty amzing to follow around a flathead for a week.

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Sounds like BrianK’s “How I Spent my Summer Vacation” essay.

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Man, it’d be nice to don scuba gear with about a weeks worth of oxygen and get some goggles that could see through muddy water. I bet that it would be pretty amzing to follow around a flathead for a week.

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That is until you find that one that says “hey he look tasty!” And commences to swollowing you whole! Hey Pug Cousteau, I think you should stick to the shore, there is enough wee in the mississippi!

Well of course you all would have slightly bigger than avg flats. Maybe that was written before there was a consumption advisory on anything longer than 4″.

I have seen too many people from MN give a squeamish look when I say I want to catch whiskered fish to believe that to many of them get eaten. That’s why I come here to look at pictures. Now get to work!

Seriously, I’ve been reading posts here a long time and never have seen one griping about someone cleaning out your honey hole with trot lines and eating them all. Did I miss that one?

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Oh, you like that one, huh? Why I oughta!

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There are some areas that the average fish is as large as 30 pounds

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Any place where the average fish is 30 pounds is a dying fishery. Any healthy population has hundreds or thousands of fingerlings and small fish for every large fish – whatever species you’re talking about.
Either you’re wildly exaggerating, or they’ve stopped reproducing.

I think Dave is talking about the average size of the fish he catches out of one spot. Using the methods he uses he wouldn’t ever catch real small flats. I don’t think he is saying that there aren’t any little ones there IMO.

dd

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I think Dave is talking about the average size of the fish he catches out of one spot. Using the methods he uses he wouldn’t ever catch real small flats. I don’t think he is saying that there aren’t any little ones there IMO.

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Just ask pug about his average catch. He fishes out of some of the same holes as fisher dave.

The only way one could really see what the average size of flats would be from trapping and weighing as the DNR does with other game fish. I think it is safe to say that some holes definately hold a larger average fish than others do. Especially when numbers of people are catching these large fish out of these same areas. If you look at the number of flathead anglers who will put in serious time fishing them compared to angling of other species I would say it is much lower than 1%. So if less than 1% of anglers even targets these fish just imagine the numbers you would see if 10% of anglers targeted them. I seriously doubt that he is fishing a dying fishery on the contrary it is felt by many to be a healthy and possibly will hold the next state record flathead.

just my two cents

Yes, the written word can always be taken more than one way…and I can see how FD’s post could be taken more than one way.

I know the spot that FD is refering to. My favorite wife’s average from last year out of that hole is 35 pounds. I don’t recall that I ever caught any there…since I seldom land a fish when she’s along…if you know what I mean.

That’s the same spot that Hansen was nicknamed “Mr. Break Off”…in case anyone forgot…

You can’t really count my fish as any survey, because the sample is too low! I can tell you every flathead I have caught’s weight and where I caught it. I am still a noob. It may sound like sweet lemons, but I don’t care about the size everytime I go out. All I want to do is catch one. Heck, I’ll even settle for a few runs ending in whiffs. I know at some point I’ll pull in a 50#+. Might be this year, next year, in 5 or 25 years, but I will.

Don’t tell my girlfriend, but I can’t wait to move in with her, because I know it will lead to more fishing! No one can be around me a week without wanting me to leave one or two nights!

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Seriously, I’ve been reading posts here a long time and never have seen one griping about someone cleaning out your honey hole with trot lines and eating them all. Did I miss that one?

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Trotlines, setlines, and ditty poles are illegal in Minnesota, which would explain why no one in Minnesota complains about them.

Pug up your Prozac..it should help.

Back to the famous quote from Dennis Steele ~ “Catching is so over rated.”

I am sure flathead move around actively in search of food, rather than just lying immobile. (I must say I didn’t get the impression the DNR link in the first post was saying that.) Different spots give up fish at different times of the day or night, which seems like evidence flatheads move around and actively seek out prey, for the reasons others have noted.

For instance, one spot I fish in Iowa City for flathead is pretty much a waste of time between about 10:00 p.m. and 3:00 a.m. After three in the morning, I wake up and get ready, because I can usually count on a mudcat or two showing up after that. I have read some In-Fisherman articles on flathead movements, and I believe this spot to be a transition area between the plunge pool of a lowhead dam where they feed actively in the middle of the night (and where I do catch flathead at that time), and the cutbanks and snags downriver where they spend their days.

My favorite shore-fishing spot for flathead in Winona is best in the middle of the night. I usually pack it in and leave at 3:00 or so, because mudcat bites drop way off after then.

Flathead WI .. I can see the points you are making, but I dont agree with the dieing fishery in that area. I appologize for not wording things the best.. I am doing the best I can with what little brain I have left

The reason I strongly disagree with the dieing fishery aspect is baby flatheads(12″) tend to show up in the area in the daytime hours for those drowning nightcrawlers on a regular basis. Lots of them show up in near by areas, but a couple show up here and ther in that area. The tiny ones dont bite at night.. I suspect they would be fish food if they didnt dissapear. Besides those tiny guys, EVERY fish is at least 20 pounds, and most are around 30(give or take 5 pounds either way). Many #35-#40 fish.. and on a few occasions last year I had fish on that was working my equipment beyond its limits.. lost fish and straitened 10/0 hooks were the outcome. You dont see my knees shaking often, but it does happen. This year the spot is not accessable by shore, and its very hard to fish by boat(nearly impossible). I know of only one fish that was caught and it was #46 besides a few good channels we got earlier this year before the shore access was blocked. Its not a place to catch numbers of fish.. but we have had many nights with 3 fish caught.. or lost when you factor in hanson .. other nights you dont catch anything, but thats fishing, right?

The area has a very high concentration of white bass and sheephead along with every other bait size fish in the river. There are extremely high concentrations of shiners and shad that constantly bring in the forage. The spot is unique and holds a variety of fish year around(I cant specify why without giving area away).

The “dying fishery” bit was just a way of saying that no fishery has a 30 pound average. The point is that they reproduce, and in great numbers, so that any average would have to be low. Only a tiny percentage ever make it to 30 pounds.

The difference is that you’re talking about one very specific spot. I haven’t ever seen a spot like that, but I wouldn’t doubt that it could exist.

As for the schooling question, I don’t think that “schooling” is quite the right term. Some spots hold numbers of flatheads, and I know that they can be very synchronized in their feeding times – we’ve all seen that. That effect could give you the impression of a “school” moving through, but I’d rather call it a good spot at a good time. I have one fall location where the night’s feed all seems to take place in about a 45 minute window – outside of that it’s dead, but when they’re on, well, it’s crazy good. It’s a spot that can’t possibly be covered in one anchor, but it doesn’t seem to matter where you are – within reason – they’re all on or all off. To some extent I think it’s that way in the summer at times too.

The other night I actually snagged a 33 pounder – on a bluegill and kahle hook. Thought I had a monster the way it fought because I had it by the tail. My bluegill had been extremely active, and I went to move it and hooked into the flat. To me that says this was a fish that was definitely NOT feeding. I moved the bait only a foot or two when I snagged it. It had to have been just sitting there with a lively bluegill right beside it. Just wasn’t time to eat.

You know if you did have the scuba gear and a clear river system, the schooling question could be answered pretty quickly. When we fish that heavy cover during the day, who’s to say they aren’t piled in there. You might dive under and find a large mass of fish occupying prime cover. Maybe they feed even less than we think during the day and we catch a few because one or two decide to “break the rules” so to speak and are lured into biting. I don’t think it’s like a white bass or walleye schooling behavior, but from the runs we get like Dave said, it is hard to imagine they don’t at least move in loose packs.

Also, fish that school tend to do it when they are smaller while the large fish tend to be loners. I could imagine a pack of 10-20# cats not wanting to hang around an area occupied by a 50# fish. And a big cat doesn’t get any benefit from schooling, it becomes negative at some point as the competion defeats the purpose. My guess is they would drive out smaller cats from their territory…if not eat them. I would also imagine that season would play a role if they were pack hunters.

Audemp gocatfishing and I on our trip caught 1 each in a row. It was a span of about 45 minutes if not shorter. Gocat and I caught ours first and they were both under 10# while audemp caught his last and pushed 18#. That would indicate schooling to me.

Although not as solitary as once thought..as water temps rise flats get more agressive towards there own kind (and anything else that moves). When the water cools and they head for their wintering holes, they become more tolorent and..of course do “school”.

I would have to agree with FHW going by the data presented via radio tracking in Vokouns papers.

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Although not as solitary as once thought..as water temps rise flats get more aggressive towards there own kind (and anything else that moves). When the water cools and they head for their wintering holes, they become more tolerant and..of course do “school”.

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I would think that the term “Gather or congregate” would be a more appropriate term for this particular discussion. Schooling indicates that they are swimming together.
thanks
Larry

good point…and I stand corrected.

“Congregate” is great. And it may even be a precursor to schooling that they seem to feed all at the same time – there must be some advantage in it. But “schooling” to me implies coordination and cooperation, which I think is a stretch.