Buck to doe ration and rack genetics

I’m starting to get concerned with the deer we are seeing on our new land. We seem to be overrun with buck. I know…not usually a bad problem. But after three months of cam pictures, we seem to own the “bachelor pad”. The property is a great filter area and gets a lot of deer traveling through with some residents as well. But I’m seeing mostly young (less than 3.5yo) and mostly 1.5yo and a few 2.5yo bucks. But I’m only seeing a few, and maybe only one mature breeding doe. Even the fawns mostly seem to be button bucks. Now I’m assuming all the buck need to be coming from does some where. But I’d say out buck to doe ration is at least 5:1. Not this doesn’t include neighboring properties but it seems odd to me. Unless we have the area where the immature bucks get pushed out too.

As well it seems like we have a bunch of clones. We have one small straight up 8 pointer after another. There is usually a small difference in tines enough to tell that they are different deer. But every single buck bigger than a fork is some size a typical 8. That tells me that this is obviously the breeding genetics. I’m not really sure there is much we can do about that other than go on buck shooting spree and try and thin out the 8’s and hope something else moves in.

Shoot out some bucks! Nothing wrong with that.

Look, I think the first thing you need to do to help with your problem is to turn off the hunting channels on your cable TV. That’ll help a lot!

First let’s address this “issue” of genetics. This gets thrown around a LOT on those aforementioned hunting channels and just about everything they talk about is either wrong or at the very best not applicable unless your property is a 10,000 acre fenced Texas ranch.

When guys talk about trying to change the “genetics” by taking out a deer or two, it indicates to me that they’re missing a few facts about genetics, especially as they relate to rack size.

1. There is no “big rack” gene. I think a lot of guys think of genetics like a series of light switches that are either on or off.

It’s kind of this way, but not really because very few genes are single factor cause/effect where the flip of a gene has a direct effect on something. It’s not a deal where good old Genetic Switch 342 is there in the genetic breaker box of a buck and next to it a label says “Rack Bigger than 8 Points” and that switch is turned “off” on all your bucks. It’s WAY more complicated than that.

Rack size is a combination of genetics, environment, nutrition, mineral intake and other factors. To add to the complication factor, the contribution that each of the factors make and how they influence the rack size is not fully understood. to say the least.

2. You’re forgetting about the doe. In so many of these conversations about taking out genetically inferior bucks, a key fact tends to go missing: The doe contributed 50% of the genes that those “inferior” bucks are now carrying.

So if you really wanted to “change the genetics” of your property (not that that’s even possible) you’d have to shoot all the does too. Not just bucks.

Why all the does? Well, how are you going to know which doe is contributing genes that, when combined with the buck’s genes, is producing all these bucks you’re calling inferior? You can’t. So you’d have to clean house.

Look, here’s where I think deer property owners can learn a lot from folks like ranchers. Even with much more control over breeding and hundreds of years of selective breeding, ranchers still have not “perfected” cattle. There are still conditions, tendencies, diseases, etc that show up despite the best efforts to breed them out of existence.

So what are your chances of changing the herd makeup of wild, free-roaming deer? Ummm, about 0.00% to use round numbers.

The best thing you can do is figure out why your property is what it is and then do what you can about it. Are you feeding mineral? Are you or neighboring properties taking out all the bigger deer so your herd is left with 8 points or less? Where ARE all the does? Do you have food plots and what are you growing?

Sorry to burst the genetic easy-fix bubble, but there’s a lot more to it.

Grouse

You say new land. How long have you owned the land? What have you done to try and improve the Deer quality on your property? A Poor Buck to Doe ratio is never a good thing when it comes to QDM. There are also several other factors that come into play as well. How much land do you Own? Are the neighbor’s practicing any form of QDM on their land?

Sounds similar to what my parents place has turned into. Back when numbers were higher we had more resident does even though the topography of our property is not the most ideal to raising fawns on (with the exception of about 30 acres of crop land we own everything that was too steep to be cropland on the ridge, 140 acres). Now with the population down from what it was back in the 90s and early 2000’s and (I think this is the bigger factor) our woods are getting more mature and several neighbors have logged in the last 2 decades and it seems most does now live on other properties and pass though ours to eat and ours is the Bachelor pad for bucks. I too get almost exclusively bucks on camera with the exception of when I get a hot food source (like a wild apple tree when it starts dropping). It makes for pretty fun mid-late october bow hunting as the bucks are all dressed up with no where to go, but come right about now in November it turns into a wasteland as the bucks go where the does are.

I’ve got plans to go in and work on cutting in about a 5 acre area if time/weather allows this winter, won’t help much for next year, but for years after I think giving the ladies a nice bedding area will do wonders for keeping them closer. Then I’ll try to keep on a schedule of trimming areas to keep some thicker bedding areas on the property at all times instead of letting it all mature out. Food is not an issue as we have 1000’s of acres of cropland around us and 2 creeks on the property for water, in my case I’m pretty sure doe bedding/fawn rearing areas is the key

Good discussion guys. So here is some more to chew on.

The land is new to us. We purchased it in February of 2015. The land was in an estate and not monitored by the owners. It’s a mix of tillable, a thick, heavily treed creek bed and brush/grass. It’s only 36 acres but is a pinch point and get a lot of travel. Some of the neighbors tried to keep trespassing hunters off of it. But it sounds like one or two were still sneaking on. When we first started looking at the land, I did some asking around and heard some stories about who was sneaking in on the land. I also got a picture from a friend of a friend of a nice 8 pointer taken off the land the year before we purchased it. But once we got serious about buying it, everyone stopped talking because it was apparent they were not supposed to be on the land. In fact whoever it was left a stand and trail cam and never came back to get them.

I’ve attached a picture of the land. We live out in crop land county. So around here a 40 acre woods is hard to find and a couple hundred acres of woods is considered a big woods and there aren’t many of those and they are usually along a river. This land has had little hunting pressure besides the few people brave enough to sneak in. There is very little hunting pressure around it because of its location to town and the adjoining properties either can’t be hunted or the owners only let very few people hunt. I don’t know if they are practicing QDM but I do know there are probably only 3-4 people allowed to hunt 5-600 acres to the north. So the deer have had a sanctuary in this area for a long time.

As for the genetics. Here is why I find it odd. For the past decade we have hunted at my dad’s buddies place. It’s less than 4 miles from this land and on the same wooded river as this one. He has a small piece of land as well that is also a pinch point and gets a lot of travel through it. It also adjoins a big woods with little hunting pressure. But there the bucks are all different. It seems like no two are the same. So that’s why I was surprised to see nothing but typical 8 pointers on this land. I’ve identified at least 12 different males with about half being fawns and spikes/forks. The other half dozen are various sizes of typical 8’s. It just seems odd to see nothing else.
When it comes to improving the land. This being our first year, we had the farmer that rents the land leave an acre of beans (next year it will be corn) along the west side of the field. The creek beds are very thick with trees and brush already and provide great cover. There are some open grass areas to bed as well. So it’s seems like we have our bases covered, but will keep looking for way to improve.

Attachments:

1. 

   Parcel-Capture.png
   

I feel better now after spending pretty much the entire day on the land hunting yesterday. I saw a bunch of does. It looks like they just weren’t traveling by game cams. The ratio seemed much closer to 1 to 1. Plus I saw and shot a 3.5 yo 9 (should been 10) point that didn’t look like the other bucks. So I know there are more than just 8s.

I was surprised how many more deer were coming threw the property that we weren’t getting on cam. I think I need more cams. They seem to come from every direction.

Grouse that was a good read. I think unless you and your neighboring parties have a total of 500 acres of more and are on the same page about what to take and what not to take there is no way to have consistent big deer. Our property is a prim example of people thinking we have bad jeans. However the jeans are there we just have to shoot any buck that walks by if we want to eat and our neighbors also take anything they can shoot. We have mainly hardwoods out here and no big corn fields or other fields and matter of fact almost all the fields around Carlton are for hay so alfalfa.
I think food source is far more important than genes. Even deer with messed up racks can grow big racks. Even though my property mainly has small deer we still get nice bucks on the trail cams and have seen big deer over the year like a 14 point and a huge 8 and so on. So in my opinion if you want big bucks focus on the plan to just shoot the mature deer and plant food with a lot of nutrients and you should get big deer regardless of genes.

We have 800 acres and it’s still hard. Bucks like to roam during the rut. Your neighbors need to be on board as well.
DT

http://www.kfan.com/media/podcast-kfan-outdoors-KFAN_Outdoors/1031-kfan-outdoors-26473120/

listen to this podcast, starting at minute 32:00 with Todd Amenrud.
lots of interesting information about buck movement, “resident” deer, and how whether or not a buck gets to breed impacts antler growth the following season…more bucks = bigger rack growth.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

So what are your chances of changing the herd makeup of wild, free-roaming deer? Ummm, about 0.00% to use round numbers.

Sorry to burst the genetic easy-fix bubble, but there’s a lot more to it.

Grouse

deertracker wrote:

We have 800 acres and it’s still hard. Bucks like to roam during the rut. Your neighbors need to be on board as well.
DT

I absolutely disagree with this statement from Grouse and have proven that DT is spot on.

I bought my land nearly 25 years ago. We had nothing but little scrub bucks with crap racks, probably 20:1 doe ratio, and no signs of hope. After talking with a few guys well versed in QDM, I talked with all my neighbors and got them on board. We executed a 5 year plan to fill our buck tags with lessor bucks with “defects” and reduce the doe herd. Additionally, we had the CWD crap and that forced the issue with major doe reduction.
However, it only took 3 years to see proof that letting young bucks go that had great potential. Ironically and uncontrolably, we have other bucks come in from other areas bringing their genetics. We see this abnormal gene passed on and the increased number of young bucks that carry it.

A few years ago we had a odd ball buck “Radio tower” come in to the scene. We’ve enjoyed years of nice 130 to 170″ racks that were very typical and symmetrical. Radio’s main beans grew vertical with all the tines pointing towards the rear. We failed to get him that year. Now fast forward 3 years and I have a dozen bucks that all sport this similar shape/form.

You can change things, but it takes time, patience, enough people on board that execute that plan, AND the right habitat to suport what your doing. There are many factors that enhance or increase a buck’s potential, but if he doesn’t have the genes, it will never happen.

So really the bottom line is – are you and all the adjoining neighbors willing to take scrub bucks for enough years? Does your hunting party have enough coverage to really have an impact to the amount of land that you are trying to manage?

Attachments:

1. 

   WGI_0001-2.jpg
   

2. 

   IMG_0289.jpg
   

3. 

   WGI_0041-2.jpg
   

Randy, you are a very wise man, but I have to respectfully disagree with changing genetics. I really don’t think you can change genetics of a herd of wild deer simply by culling out the inferior bucks. Somehow you have to cull out the does that carry that inferior gene and how can you identify those does? In your situation CWD helped by thinning the does and you culled out some inferior bucks, but I can’t believe you got all the does and bucks with inferior genes out of the area.

We used to have the same issue with scrub racks on the vast majority of our bucks… or so we thought. We did nothing in the sense of culling out deer. What we did do was change our thinking and game plan to QDM. We passed a lot of those bucks we thought had inferior racks, we used mineral stations to give the herd proper chemical balance, and we used food plot to give the herd the nutrition they were lacking. Turns out those bucks we thought had scrub racks were just young deer that didn’t have the time or nutrition to develop. With proper age and nutrition they developed into some great deer. We still get the occasional deer that is 3 years old that you can tell may never have potential,and when they hit 4 years old with a crap rack they are open for the taking.

Maybe we didn’t fix the nutrition of all the deer, but I think those inferior deer get driven off to less desirable land or just get taken out by natural causes.

Bottom line is I am not convinced you can fix genetics, but I do believe you can fix nutrition and age with QDM

As I read through this thread I cant help but think, man I wish I had the problem of seeing to many bucks regardless of “rack size or genetics.”

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/genetics/

Interesting topic, my dad and his buddy are having same issues on the land they have. Not much a hunter myself but enjoy the discussions. Quick Google got me article above.

Sticker, we’ll never cull “all”. Impossible as I mentioned on what comes wondering into our area.

We are also very fortunate in the sense that we have many natural mineral deposits. We have so many that deer frequent, that if found, you have a natural honey hole. With that said, I recognize that we have better habitat than many other areas. We also have an extremely high harvest rate. When you have 14 guys covering 230 acres (neighbor’s farm), its a wonder that no one has been shot yet…and not many deer slip through the gaps without being passed on. So I agree that habitat and hunting pressure can play a very vital role in the results.

Headed out the door to my farm – safe travels and good luck to everyone in WI

Randy, you are taking my comment out of context. I was referring to the fact–and it is a fact–that you cannot change the genetic makeup of a wild, free ranging deer herd simply by culling a few of the bucks.

Your story of your property has nothing to do with changing genetics. You’re simply giving the genetics that are present more time to manifest themselves through maturity AND providing the nutrition to help this occur. Those bucks are carrying the sames genes they’ve always carried.

As I stated, it’s a lot more complex than just shooting a few “inferior” deer. You are absolutely correct, in WI you have naturally occurring, mineral-rich soils and water, and that is a big boost. It’s not coincidence that the biggest whitetail areas in the US have similar characteristics. Nutrition including mineral intake has been shown in everything I’ve read to be the leading factors in rack and overall deer size.

Even if it were possible to genetically alter deer, it could NOT be done by only shooting bucks. As I said, the doe contributes 50% of the genes give or take. Also, it is NOT scientifically established as to which gender contributes more the the genes that do influence rack size. Like baldness in the males of our species, it could actually be the female’s genetic composition that controls rack genetics, not the male.

There is absolutely no chance of altering wild, free roaming deer significantly on a genetic level, which was what the OP asked about. Obviously, providing nutrition, minerals, predator controls and QDM practices that allow bucks to mature are the only way to have a significant impact.

Grouse

Something to think on also as far as the size of bucks is that the big ones don’t get big by making themselves visible. I had a buck show up on camera again this year that I am sure is the same deer I was getting pictures of 2 years ago. Yet he managed to go all of last year without so much as one picture on 5 cameras, nor the 2 my friend just down the valley has, nor did either of us see it all year last year.

Also you have to realize the cold hard fact of having a good buck to doe ratio. A while ago a few of family friends bought a huge shack with 1,050 acres. They live and breathe hunting they do enough for the deer habitat to have their taxes exempt. When they bought this property they had a similar situation that Randy was talking about, they had to many bucks. They had 3.5 year old forks and not a deer bigger then a 8 on the land. They also noticed some of the does weren’t surviving the rut because they had to many bucks chasing the does and not giving them a break so they were running the does to death.

So what they started to do is shooting bucks every year they filled their tags with any rack forks spikes ect. After a few years they noticed more does surviving and the rack size sky rocketed. They explained it as the racks were stunted because of lack of nutrients even though 100 of the 1,050 acres was food plots. The nutrients were not enough to make big racks so there biggest bucks would maybe break 100 inches.

I hear this so much that you shouldn’t shoot spikes and forks or other yearlings. However I believe there is a management program for every situation. If you have a huge ratio like randy talking about 20 bucks to 1 doe it is totally fine to take some smaller bucks out of the heard.

I think that when you are seeing a lot of little bucks it is okay to take one every now and then. If you have to big of an age group you can see that the average sizes of a 4.5 old will max out sooner. More nutrients are needed to develop big horns more big deer the more nutrients needed.

So back to these guys situation they had a staggering estimate of 50-1 buck to doe ratio. So this is more of an extreme situation. After 15 years now they have a buck called Andrey The Giant. At 2.5 years old his sheds measured an unbelievable 133 5/8. At 3.5 he looks like he didn’t grow much from last year maybe 140 but he should blow up as a 4.5 next year.

Also when you are choosing a management plan you have to keep it in a short term plan far a long term goal and revisit it every three to five years. A deer population can change drastically every three years or so. There is the grand old question of there are four deer in a field a spike, a basket rack 8, a nicer 8, and a doe. What do you shoot? Well that is a question that has no right answer. Lets say that 8 is the biggest deer you ever saw, go ahead and shoot it. Lets say you have a lot of deer and a lot of does, shoot the doe. Lets say you are moving in the next 5 years take the spike for a quicker monster buck program. Lets say you are poor take them all. lol My point is your buddies management plan may not be right for what you have going on. Maybe your like me with 80 acres that we can hunt and with neighbors on the edges that take what ever they can get so we take what we can get. Also we love to eat venison.

So evaluate your plan, ask what you want to see, make sure you have enough land to do it successfully, and make sure after a while you reevaluate. Good luck with everything and try and find the management plan that’s right for you.

P.S. sorry I know this is lengthy.

For what its worth,,, down here theres loads and loads of does and at maturity theres big does and smaller framed does. I’ve heard it said that the does create and dictate what genes are passed on to make bigger racked bucks. Theres quite a few regular sized bucks between 140″ and 180’s and every year the same amount of does are shot along with a decent rate of bucks, weather big or small racks.

So maybe the buck/doe ratio their shooting, keeps the genes right in a fairly balance herd. I know nutrition is a must for big antler growth and the nutrition to keeps those genes healthy. The DNR here just loves soybeans and their planted everywhere by rotating from corn to beans every other year and once in awhile in a good year their as high as a 5 strand barbed wire fence. Even if the genes are there it takes nutrition to make things work. I’m still trying to figure out if nutrition is maybe the most determining factor that influances antler growth and genetics a close second. Some racks are gnarly looking but their still big from nutrition and some are big with very few if any deductions. I spent my fair share of time in a tree stand and seen a lot of does and bucks and there is a difference in what some deer look like. Some look scrubby and some sleek and more well defined. I don’t know if any of the genes that produce those body shapes comes into play, passing on the genes that produce bigger racks, but I know nutrition helps a lot and keeps the herd as healthy as its going to that year.

I do know in areas where the food supply maybe isn’t what it takes to keep a herd real healthy during winter the bucks drop their antlers a lot earlier then here, here I’ve seen them holding their racks until march and its common to see racked bucks in February. Abundant nutrition everywhere?

Grouse, I read back over this and your correct on my taking the genetics aspect out of context. To change genetics, you need to introduce new genes to the pool. We’ve been trying to control what is there and passed on.