Has anyone tried to fully season a brisket for “X” hours at “X” temp sous vide then transfer to a 225f smoker and let er rip till the 20? degree internal temp?
Please explain your process and your out come?
Following
I have not.
I have not done it but Kenji does great work in developing these recipes and this should give you a good spot to start, his YouTube channel is terrific too.
https://www.seriouseats.com/sous-vide-barbecue-smoked-bbq-brisket-texas-recipe
It was always my understanding that meat stopped absorbing the smoke flavors when it reached around 150 deg. Not saying it wouldn’t be delicious but it certainly wouldn’t be able to replicate a traditionally smoked brisket.
You could always add liquid smoke to the sous vide bag to achieve that smoke flavor. Most grocery store bacon is liquid smoke cured/injected.
So I’ve actually heard of the exact opposite. Smoke how you normally would, then into sous vide for what you could call an “extended rest”. If you pull at 206 you might start the temp at 160, then 150, 140, then eat. I have heard as long as 24 hours. A coworker did a spendy Snake River brisket this way and it looked pretty amazing.
The long & short of it is that the meat should suck all the juices back in.
I have heard as long as 24 hours
I like to smoke my brisket at 200F. I found the slower you bring up the temp the better the fat renders into the meat. The last full brisket I did took 26 hours + 2 hour rest. It was fantastic. I was hoping I would hear it took less time with doing the sous vide method.
I feel like sous vide first and smoke second wouldn’t allow for much bark, which is my favorite part of a brisket. Smoke then sous vide seems like a better option, but your bark is going to rehydrate then too I’d guess. If you try it let us know how it goes!
^ I never thought about it. My uncle taught me how to cook a Brisket and he has been doing it this way his whole life. Inside the smoker is at 200 that is surrounding the meat. What pathogens are we talking about? I have been cooking briskets this way for over 20 years. Never got sick other than from eating too much.
@Rodwork
Do you worry about the bad pathogens for allowing your meat to lie in the 40f to 140f exceeding the 4 hour period?
How hot do you smoke pork butts? How long are they in similar environs? I’d worry more about a large shoulder with the bone in it than a brisket, but then I’d never get a brisket anywhere near close to a water bath, sealed or otherwise.
Brisket is a huge hunk of meat for the vide task to begin with. Secondly the bark on the brisket is what’s preferred and helps get the flavor of smoking down deep in the meat. The sous vide works for smaller cuts of meat but I think a brisket is a waste doing it that method, smoking before or afterwards. If you’re wanting the brisket to be more tender, dissolve some unseasoned meat tenderizer in a couple cups of water and inject it into the brisket the day before smoking, cover with plastic wrap in the fridge and remove it from the fridge to allow it to get to room temperature before smoking.
@Rodwork
Do you worry about the bad pathogens for allowing your meat to lie in the 40f to 140f exceeding the 4 hour period?
Not a concern for me either – beef in general is not hospitable to the types of bugs that get you sick, primal cuts especially, since those bugs rely on surface area exposed to air + other surfaces. Plus the enviro inside a smoker is doubly tough for that, the method of smoking was developed to preserve meat after all.
Proper food handling prior to going on the smoke and everything should be just fine.
@Rodwork
Do you worry about the bad pathogens for allowing your meat to lie in the 40f to 140f exceeding the 4 hour period?
Doesn’t every low and slow big piece of meat hit that same criteria of 40F-140F for 4 hours+? Guess I never really thought about it, plus the meat is going to go above that danger zone for a long time before it is going to be eaten, especially brisket.
Has anyone tried to fully season a brisket for “X” hours at “X” temp sous vide then transfer to a 225f smoker and let er rip till the 20? degree internal temp?
Please explain your process and your out come?
I haven’t done a brisket but have done pulled pork that way a few times. I wouldn’t bring the meat to 200 after the sous vide process. That will only lose more juice. At 165° for 24 hours the pork butt will already be falling apart when you take it out of the bag. In theory the meat should already be at whatever texture you are looking for after the water bath. The time and temp will depend what that is.
I smoke @ 225f to 235f. Seldom does my block of whole muscle meat lay in between the 40f to 140f for an excess of 4 to at most 5 hours. I asked the question to @Rodwork because he runs his cabinet @ 200f, that is serious low heat.
With the following I stand corrected.
40-14-4 Rule
“What Is The 40-140-4 Rule?
The 40-140-4 rule, sometimes referred to as the 40-140 rule, is a general food safety rule stating that meat should rise from 40° F to 140° F within 4 hours to reduce the amount of bacteria growth on the meat.
The 40-140-4 rule is widely used as an easy way to remember how long food can be left in the danger zone before it becomes unsafe to eat.
How does the danger zone effect smoking?
Because smoking involves cooking meat low and slow, you may be wondering if you should worry about the danger zone. In short you shouldn’t have much to worry about. Most of the time, our meat will pass the 40-140-4 rule; however, there are a couple factors that can affect the time your meat spends in the danger zone.
Intact Meat:
When smoking meat, almost all the meat we are cooking is considered intact meat. Intact meat is any meat whose interior is protected from pathogens. For example, a whole brisket or a whole pork shoulder are considered intact. Once you mechanically alter the meat, such as grounding it up, injecting the meat, or puncturing the surface, the meat is then considered non-intact.
If you are smoking an intact piece of meat, you do not have to worry about danger zone. Because the interior of the meat is protected, the bacteria that grows in the danger zone cannot reach the interior. The only piece of the meat that is vulnerable to the danger zone is the outer 0.5” of the meat; however, because the exterior of the meat cooks much faster than the inside, it will pass the 40-140 rule with ease at any temperature above 200°
When working with meat that is not considered “intact”, the harmful bacteria that grows within the danger zone is able to reach the center of the meat. To cook non-intact meat safely, you must make sure all parts of the meat are pass through the danger zone within 4 hours.
It is important to note that cutting a larger piece of meat into smaller pieces would still be considered intact meat because you have not created a pathway to the interior of the meat.
Puncturing Your Meat:
Injecting your meat is a popular practice in the meat smoking world and is done before the meat is thrown onto the smoker to start cooking; however, once you inject the meat, you are creating a pathway for the bacteria to reach the middle.
If you decide to inject your meat, you should pay extra attention to the 40-140-4 rule. Unlike intact meat, meat that has been injected has 4 hours for the internal temperature to go from 40° to 140° to be considered safe to eat.
Likewise, because puncturing the meat allows the harmful bacteria a pathway to the center of the meat, you need to be careful about putting a thermometer in too early. In general, you would wait 2-4 hours before sticking the thermometer in. This will give the interior of your meat more time to get through the danger zone. There is really no benefit to putting the thermometer in the meat at the start of the smoke anyways. When you put the thermometer in largely depends on the size of the meat.”
If you inject then my thinking comes into play.
Here is a site that I learned from many years back.
SMF
“Here is the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline…
Uncured Meat that is not Intact as in Ground, Injected*, Boned/Rolled &Tied or have multiple Punctures to insert flavorings, should be cooked at a temperature, 225+, that will get the Internal Temperature from 40 to 140 degree in 4 hours. If there is an issue, reaching this goal +/- an hour or so, like your smoker dying, there is an increased risk of bacteria growing to Dangerous levels. There are Exceptions, see below for more detail…
If the Meat, a Pork Butt, Beef Brisket, Etc, is INTACT, other than Therm Probe, it don’t matter if the IT takes 4 hours or 24 hours to get above 140 if we want it there at all!!! The interior of muscle is Sterile, so there is no Bacteria to worry about. Additionally, at 225°F, the meat surface will pass 140°F in 30 to 60 minutes or less, depending on the size of the meat. All surface bacteria is Killed and there is very little that can change that.
The reason for the term Guideline over Rule is because if the meat takes 4 hours and 5 minutes to reach 140, or 4.5, 5 or even 6 hours, is all lost? NO! We add variables that need consideration. Bacteria rapidly grows to Unsafe Levels in, ” The Danger Zone, 40 degrees to 140 degrees, ” Only under PERFECT conditions. Bacteria need the right Temp, Moisture Level, sufficient Food and Time to grow. Remove, reduce or affect any of these and growth slows or stops. Like most of us, bacteria don’t just jump out of bed and go to work. If conditions go from one of no growth to a condition that sustains growth the bacteria need time, often hours to Wake up and start multiplying This is called the ” Lag Time ” before growth. Then they need more time to grow from a few to dangerous levels. Additionally, where one type can still survive at the extreme of 140, many others slow or stop growing at temps as low as 120 degrees and are killed at 130 degrees if held there for sufficient time. Are THESE bacteria an issue if we run over 4 hours? NO again, they were dead an hour or so ago. Now add ingredients that Inhibit Bacterial Growth like Salt, Sugar, Alcohol and Acid, with a Wet or Dry Brine, Marinade, even Injected* and the 4 hours can be exceeded by a couple hours with no concern. (*Injecting Chicken or Beef Broth is more of a concern, than injecting a high salt brine or marinade that contains salt, sugar, acid or alcohol.)
Yes, we need to Cover our Butts and assume ANY or all types of bacteria may be on the meat and Handle it properly, watch smoker and internal temps, be aware of and follow “Guidelines”.
Yes, we are here to learn, teach and help each other. However if you are going to tell a member in a panic to, ” Toss that DEADLY meat out! “, based on a Guideline…You better Know what the 40 to 140 in 4 Guideline is and if YOU are unsure, reassure the panicked member to hang in there, that we can help and pass the question on.
You want a good ” RULE “…It is NOT, ” When in Doubt, Throw it out. ” At SMF the Rule is, ” When in Doubt, PM somebody that KNOWS the answer! ““
24 hours is way to long. I dont see what sous vide would accomplish.
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