Another level… GREAT fisherman… Requirements?

Okay, I have learned a lot this year via this board and practice on the water. I have seen a general increase in the quantity and quality of the fish I catch, and feel good about the progress. I owe some of that to you guys on the board… Thanks!

Now, here is a question based on learning that Champman took 9th in last week’s Team Supreme Tourney… Don’t mean to pimp Jim or anything, as Jim is very well respected and his caliber of fishing is exceptional. I am not trying to make Jim out to be a god or anything, just another level I seek to achieve. So, what does it take?

Champman (and others), what does it take to get to be the level of fisherman the winners are in these events?

A comment… I openly will argue with folks that fishing is 80% skill and 20% luck… we could debate the numbers here, but you get the point with the ratio… skill is the PROMINANT factor in success… especially repeatable successes.

Now, I realize there is NO real answer here, but wonder what people think. Do some people have a gift? Is it time on the water? Education? Any thoughts? And, if there are measurable, practicable points – what are they?

Just trying to stir some discussion.

Post deleted by jake

In a word, Dedication. You have to commit time on the water. Ask James why he’s so good at catching walleyes. I’m pretty sure he’ll tell you it’s due to being on the water and dedicating the time and energy to being the best. Sometimes I think that guy can catch a 4lb walleye in a shot glass.

Education plays a part, but there are people out there that are ‘Einstein’ smart and couldn’t catch a pirahna in a barrel with a Porterhouse. Understanding why fish do what they do and patterning them helps. Whenever I go fishing I try to understand why those fish I just caught were there. Keeping notes is a must. A little black book of notes is key, and that is my biggest shortcoming along with not spending the hours I would like to on the water, but on the other hand my memory serves me well enough. Then again, it’s not a big deal for me to be the pinnacle of Bass fishing. I like to fish and I fish lots of different species. I like to think I’m good at it.

Tom Monsoor is a good fisherman because of the time he spends on the water. Much of that time he spent commercial fishing. Beleive me, you can learn INCREDIBLE amounts of info by commercial fishing. I’ve been there and done that. Being able to relate to your trade what you learned doing something else can be very rewarding. Yeah, I know that last line is confusing. Sorry…

Luck plays a very small portion in being a good fisherman. Sure, you can stumble onto a pile of fish from time to time but, it’s impossible to be at the right place at the right time consistently if you don’t do your homework. Try doing that in a tourney and you’ll find out in a hurry that dedication and commitment will always prevail over luck.

I hope to some extent that answers your question. It’s my point of view at least.

I often hear people refer to this person or that person as a good hook. (a good fisherman). To reach the level of what I consider a top notch fisherman, they must consistantly prove there skills in tournament situtations regardless of the conditions. I’m a firm believer in the fact that information is power. Acurrate information can help anyone improve there success. The information that everyone shares on this site has helped most everyone who reads it. However, nothing can replace experience or knowledge gained first hand by actually being there. Time on the water has no substitute. The guys that place high in local and regional tournaments not only have the benifit of knowing the rivers & lakes in every season and condition, but know the techniques called for in each situation. It’s hard to compete against guys that devote that much time & effort. And I say that only out of jealousy because I don’t have the time to devote to it.

What does it take? I’ve often asked myself that question; here’s what I’ve learned so far.

Time on the water -then I’ll know what the fish are doing and how to catch them.

Education -like reading, time on the water and experimentation (I cannot stress how much I’ve learned from the latter. If I go out on a milk run, what have I learned?).

The Monsoors, Brovarneys, Wendlandts, Welchs, Rods, Jeffs, Scotts, Jeffs (a different Jeff) all seem to have one thing in common: Time on the water.

Can you imagaine knowing the Mississippi River so well that you’ve not only fished it in all conditions, but you can catch consistenly in all conditions as well?

Look at Tony Christian -the ’03 All American. What did he say got him there other than a spinner bait and black and blue jig? Time on the water.

Well, there’re my dos centavos.

Thanks,

OTW

Look what’s below. Imagine that. And plastered all over my web pages , too.

You can also notice that some guys you fish with that have time on the water,(TOTW) and Dedication(BF), also have something else and although it is a bunch of things put together. I’m gonna put it under the heading of “concentration” . Concentration on your line, your boat position, your bait, the water(temp,color,flow,depth), the weather, bass science(Jeremy),forage, the knot you just tied, the sharpness of your hook, the pace of your retrieve,your competitors, the mood of the fish, the color of your lure, the type of line,rod,reel, lure that is working best, the types of structure that is working best, and your own head game. Although a few of these have nothing to do with TOTW, most of them will not be showing you the right info,(feedback), if they are not practiced or checked with TOTW. For a long time now I have felt that TOTW also stood for Total(TOT), Weight(W).

I have a hard time myself though transitioning from personal fishing, to guiding, to tourney competition. They all have a different mind set. It won’t be a problem next year though , because we are gonna drop down to only 40-50 guide customers( about 1/3 of what we did this year)and “concentrate again on tourneys”, and keeping my back healthy. I CAN’T WAIT.

So if my plan works in another 20 years when I am 68 I will be a “Great Fisherman”

What is takes to reach the next level…

This is an interesting topic as it is the unattainable perfection we all seek. Well, To start you need to continually work on the fundamentals of technique. You need to be pitching into a shot glass during the off season and perfect practice makes perfect. Pay close attention that you make quiet entry and present the bait in a natural fashion or in a fashion that you are making a conscious effort to imitate. Next work on all the different techniques that you will use over the course of the year. Learn these techniques and master them. The more presentations you can do well the better off you will be. I will warn you that just because you know how to do them does not mean you are any good at them. Now for one often overlooked piece of the puzzle is learn BOAT CONTROL. Put yourself in many different conditions and work on keeping your boat in position with minimal impact to the environment. Yes you need to be making long cast. (maybe not as long as Tom does) but long casts. (tom likes to fish pool 9 while keeping the boat in
Dresbek)
Once you get your mechanics and boat control in shape and are able to effectively work through an ecosystem without shooting yourself in the foot before you even cast, you are ready to start applying some of the materials you have experienced and read in books or here at In-DepthAngling. Learning what bass do through the seasons, water temps, pressure, and the other are a must if you have limited time on the water. Limited meaning you can’t be out there everyday. This will give you confidence in the areas you suspect should hold fish and allow you to eliminate water that should not. (yep I know nothing is set in stone) anyway, These are just the ingredients you will need to proceed. Anything short of this then you are kidding yourself about your abilities or expected success.

Now onto what BlueFleck said…
Time on the water. This is also Mountain Mans mantra however all the time on the water is futile unless you have mastered the above mentioned ingredients. To be a good hook. I would consider anyone with good technique, and good aptitude a Good Hook. The ability for a person to go out and find fish on any given day is what sets them apart from the normal guy with a shiny john boat. –grin-
Now that you have the tools you are ready to take yourself to the next level. First if you are wanting to do the absolute best you can you will need to set aside enough time to cover all the water available or at very least all the water in a general area you plan to fish. (Yes you can win even if you are not on the best water.) Generally speaking if I expect to compete in the Team Supreme circuit I will need to set aside at least 4 days prior to the tournament for the pool (25 miles) I am planning on fishing. I need to work many different ecosystems to see what patterns are playing out and once I get the general jest of what is happening in the different types of environments I work on fine tuning the pattern and locating the biggest fish in that ecosystem. I would estimate that 99% of the top 10 finishers this year spent a minimum of 4 days prefishing and were at a definite advantage having been following different schools around the river as they transition.
Things like keeping notes is very powerful and experience in general helps you to more efficiently find the fish you are looking for. This is what it takes to get to the next level.
Or the simple version:

To make it simple.
1. Technique.
2. Boat control.
3. Understanding the fish.
4. Putting in your time.
5. experience.

jc

I agree that Time on the Water is the most important eliment , but i like what “OntheWater” said when he mentioned that “better” fisherman know what fish do in any type of condition and can catch them in that situation . Look at today for example…We have extreme winds 20-30+mph , how is that going to effect how i fish tonight? If you know the answer (not sure that i do) i think you’re on the way to the next step.

“Yes you need to be making long cast. (maybe not as long as Tom does) but long casts. (tom likes to fish pool 9 while keeping the boat in
Dresbach)”

Hey, I resemble that remark.

R U Jealous?!?!?….

First of all I do NOT consider myself a great fisherman but rather a good fisherman that once in a while thinks he is a great fisherman!

That being said, I have learned that fishing with many other people of varying degrees of expertise can teach you something and should teach you something every time on the water. Sometimes it is not how to do something but rather how NOT to do something that is the lesson for the day. Time on the water is one of the key ingedients to a recipe for success but also I think some people are more in tune with the natural processes that are occurring in nature and pick up on natural cues better than others. I owe a lot of my success to having a father and older brothers that taught me much of what I know but I took that a step further by going to college to learn more about the natural systems and interactions in nature. There are times when I can put together a pattern based on time of year, water temp, water level or other obvious cues but the next day with no apparent changes will find me scratching my head wondering what happened. At this point I normally do one of two things, I either say the heck with history and go back to finding out what is going on with the fish that day by trying shallow, deep or somewhere in between or I go to an area that I know well and try to figure out what is going on in a confidence spot and then try to use that pattern in similar spots. Some times it works and sometimes not.

I do feel that some people have an inate ability to make decisions based on a “gut feeling” or instinct. These people have a better natural instinct than others and whether or not this is genetic trait or a learned trait it seems to me that some of us have it and the rest don’t. When I make the correct adjustment based on instinct then I think I may have it and when I don’t, then I question that instinct afterwards.

Bottom line is that I think we all have an instinctual process in our minds that is improved with experience and experimentation. Interesting thread and food for thought.

Slop Bass:

Well, one thing I recommend is NOT casting a buzzbait as high and hard as you can directly into that wind, unless you like picking huge birds-nests!!

My biggest problem with fishing the wind is that it makes JC’s #2 impossible, well, at least much more difficult.

I do not normally chime in this forum too much as I spend the majority of my time chasing walleyes. (But read it quite often)
Im my mind, I think you have all got great answers to a very sought after question.
From my perspective as being a guide and tourney angler, I know the consequences if I do not perform in a given situation. I book lots of trips in advance and I often get the question of “what do you think we will be catching them on?” Well, if I could answer that question 6 months in advance and hit it on the head, I would be buying lottery tickets everyday right!

I agree with JC as the factors he listed were right on for becoming the best versatile angler you can be. However, this is a catch 22. Meaning if you have all the time on the water and go through the same paces everyday, you will gain very little. Putting all the pieces of the puzzle together is obviously the main objective. I think if I had to pick one factor that JC listed to be the most important, would be to understand the species you are after, even take it a step further and continue your knowledge on the forage that they pursue. (ie.. For me, understanding whitefish or ciscoes seasonal movements have definately played a huge role in determining where and how the walleyes will relate in given situations.)

This is a great topic.

Crawford, Be careful with the shinny flat bottom boat cracks. (Grin Back) Just kidding…..

What is interesting is that the top 5 pts. leaders in Team Supreme are hardly any different than last year. Pretty astonishing giving the huge difference in water conditions. I’ve fished the North River div. for 2 yrs. now and really thought last year benefited the largemouth guys, me included. This was due to the fact that the flow was blowing over all the grass for a good part of the year and the bait wasn’t bunched up for the smallies. So this year I thought the smallie guys would destroy the largemouth guys but it didn’t happen. If you look at the top 5 this year none of them is a smallie specialist. Jeff Ritter probably weighed more smallies than the other guys but he still would generally have a mixed bag. The other teams pretty much catch an overwhelming percentage of largemouth. And they aren’t catching them off the main river wingdams and laydowns. Those big largemouth sacks come from incredibly shallow water especially this year. Those bass live in that grass most of their lives and they pretty much refused to leave unless their backs became exposed.

As far as time on the water goes I have to agree with Jeremy I hate to do that. Just kidding, time on the water is important but you still have to fish right. Most people develop a way of fishing for bass like how they cast, run the trolling motor, analyze the water and they become set in that pattern of fishing. So extra time on the water isn’t going to raise very many people to that next level. Their is a ton of guys that are decent fisherman that could prefish for a week and guys like Ritter could prefish a day or two and kill them. He simply knows the water and the fish from past experience and does his thing. Their are guys that finished 2nd and 4th in the pts. that live 3 to 4 hrs. away from the tournament waters and only fish there when they have a tournament. They aren’t going after work and they aren’t fishing all week practicing either. They must know the fish, migration patterns, feeding patterns, and presentation patterns to be that consistent year to year.

Tom,
Yep I am Jealous. Its just not fair.
And to make matters worse. Tom will keep you so far away from the fish all you can do is watch him boat limit after limit after which he then calls you a smurf and makes fun of your whole family.. My mother didn’t bless me with ape arms…
jc

I usually don’t chime in, but very interesting topic! My 2 cents…. It takes time on the water, but over time… let’s call it water wisdom. For example, someone who’s only been to the river a few times in the past could come and pre-fish a tournament for two weeks, that’s time on the water, but if the water suddenly changes up or down, clear or dirty.. he doesn’t know what to do. So maybe it’s time on the water…. over time, water wisdom.
You talk about the top guys in the TS not needing to pre-fish much… absolutely right. My dad and uncle do quite well every tournament and they pre-fish just one day, mainly just to get a feel for what the water’s doing, not to hook as many fish as they can. But they’ve been fishing the river for over 30 years.
One other note, something I heard from Rick Clunn once during a tournament was that he visualized of each one of his lures, rods, reels and types of lines as tools. Each tool used to perform a different task in different conditions. Its something I’ve found helps me, especially prefishing.

the thing i am finding out, they don’t cancel tourneys when the sky is cloudy, or it is misting out, that kind of knowledge of the fish and the lake at the time is what will set you apart from the other guys you are fishing against. if you can get out in the mist, or even a rainy cloudy day and chase them around, you will find out what lures work and what ones dont. the technique that is used to trigger that big strike. I am still trying to perfect my personal fishing that way, but fishing with the greats, you will learn by watching what they do. try to mimic them as good as you can, and soon you will be finding that you will be getting better fish in the boat.

shane

Team supreme and prefishing.

Jason,
The fact that your uncle and father do so well in my opinion is all but an anomaly. They have already done there prefishing over the years, for many years. They have put in there time and know the locations that hold the best fish year after year and they have the uncanny ability to eliminate entire stretches of the river without even having to check. This type of fisherman is very hard to beat especially on water in which he is comfortable. This is where experience definitely pays off.
As for the rest of us… The guys that have to work hard every day out on the water to just gain the amount of experience your family has is all but unfair. –grin- Actually I have found little spots in the last couple years that I know without a doubt that I can win on at the right time in the right conditions. These little spots only increase in numbers every year and I suspect in 30 years of fishing I will be able to cherry pick them in about every tournament.
If you look at the top 5 TS point leaders you will start off with Jeff Ritter. He is on the water just about every day. He has first hand experience as to what is playing out. From the info I have, Jeff found a quality school of smallies this spring and has been able to follow them through the course of the year capitalizing in them often. If you remember Tom Monsoor and Darren did this a couple years ago and won many of the tournaments they fished. On to number 2. Chase and Terry, I had the good fortune to spend a few days with them this summer while staying at the same hotel. They were on the water every day from Tuesday through Saturday. They fished in separate boats and fished every bit of the areas they thought would produce the winning weight. Imagine to no ones surprise that they won that tourney. They always without exception spend numerous days prefishing and 2nd place is the result. 3rd place. Brian and his father Tom this year. (glad you guys are ok) Brian spends a pile of time prefishing mostly out of his john boat. 4th was had by Nevin and Mike, they also spend around 4 days getting ready for every event.
These guys are putting there time in and it is paying off. 5th is the Howlands. Dang these guys. One day prefishing and they can still put together winning limits. Just plain makes me jealous. I want to say a big Congrats to them all.
Jc

Attention to detail and putting it where it doesn’t get lost. Spend all the time you want on the water but don’t pay attention to detail, might as well fish in your driveway. Many things go into making a good hook. But if you really know one, look at how he/she pays attention to detail and some how puts it where it doesn’t get lost.

Just my 2 sense worth

Gundy

Gentlemen – THANK YOU! I did not expect to generate so much interest… it was great to hear people’s thoughts, and to hear from people that haven’t posted here before. Thanks!

A few comments: I knew guys put serious time on the water… but had no idea folks were putting DAYS on the water prior to tourney’s. It humbles me a bit, for sure. I always wondered what it might take… As far as I have come, I always seem to run middle of the pack, when entering tourney’s. I get it now… or at least, I am beginning to understand. Thanks for sharing.

With that said… I plan to hit the water at least 2 days prior to the Frenzy next weekend (Sept 27)… maybe I can compete with you big dogs!

The results will show!

I love this topic, but no one has really mentioned the mental aspect of tournament fishing. What happens when all aspects of preperation are done and tournament day is here, and things are not panning out? This is what makes the great,great, and me ok.

After reading this post originally and now seeing it come it again, it still peaks my interest. I think it intrigues me because like Jeremy stated it is the pursuit of an unattainable goal. You can always learn more or be better, etc… I have found that there is no substitute for time on the water, but it must be tempered in that often times I was able to compare my performance to the those sharing the boat or those with whom I was competing and learn valuable lessons. A few years back I started carrying a small tape recorder and dictating notes throughout the fishing day and as time allowed I would transcribe these into a journal format. The record/history allows me to “see” times when certain seasonalities/techniques/conditions existed and how to respond. It has also allowed me to become more reliant on gut instinct, cuz I can see times when it worked in the past which gives me more confidence with decisions I make. I believe a huge part of being able to consistently locate/catch fish, is being able to think like the fish or what evironmental/biological requirements the fish have. I have almost started to think of fish more in terms of deer hunting. It is easy to visualize in the terrestial landscape how deer have certain definable travel paths usually using edges or breaks to move towards areas which satisfy their natural requirments of food, cover, etc. The fish is just another natural creature, albeit many people have a difficult time visualizing or interpreting the underwater world.

Most of he key topics have been touched in this thread so I can only add one thing. The good guys are able to adjust to changing weather conditions. Tons of tournament game plans have been crushed by high winds. Seems like the wind always blows on tournament days. Part of being a successful is tournament angles is having a plan B. Just being able to fish all day tips the odds in your favor. Here is an approach that has saved the day several time for me. I’ll fish my primary spots for a few hours but I don’t burn up my batteries on them. I always carry a drift sock in my boat. I’ll find a wind blown stretch of shoreline that I know holds fish. I’ll through the drift sock off the back of the boat and use my trolling motor to steer. I usually fish a reaction bait but with the wind at your back you have a lot less bow in your line and you may be able to fish a jig or worm on the bottom. Just catching that limit can save the day.