new livewell rule? How big is yours? no jokes plea

This year the DNR is proposing adding many new rules regarding fishing tournaments. One of these is about livewell size. While it is important that fish care receive the highest priority in a tournament, most boats older then 2001 may not meet this standard.

The MN DNR wants to require tournament boats to be capable of holding one gallon of water per pound of fish. So, while two 5 fish 20lb limits might never happen to me, if it did this would mean I’d need a 40 gallon livewell capacity. So how many boats, what brand of boats and what age of boats would meet this standard? I guessing that most boats over 5 yrs old, couldn’t meet this. I’m also guessing that livewell volume has little to do with dissoved oxygen. Since dissolved oxygen content has much to do with the size and pressure of the livewell pump. It is harder to maintain a .5 parts per million in a larger livewell.

While we need to keep pushing for better fish care, this might not be the best way of going about it. I’d like to see an end to plastic bag weigh-ins that suffocate fish. I commend the DNR for their efforts, I just hope they take into account how few boats might meet this new rule. Maybe if they did a little reseach they might have found out that they are proposing an unrealistic rule.

That may be a pproposed rule but I see it real hard to enforce and police.
Its not the amount of water in a livewell its the amount of oxygen the fish have no matter the amount of water. I pump out and re fill many times in a day. I could get by with much less water than they are saying is required.
So to anwser you question, my livewell capacity in an 07′ Champion is 40 gallons.

Personally I think that is alittle crazy. The front livewell in my 2006 Alumacraft Navigator is 34 gals and its 54” long. Thats 13” wide, 18” deep, and 54” long which is HUGE. Granted it has another smaller livewell in the back but gee…how much livewell space does a person need?
Thanks, Bill

Eric, if 40 gallons is what is listed by the manufacturer, that might be including the entire space (air space too). Most manufacturers that list the gallon specifications are stating the entire area, not the area below the overflow.

I “think” my 03 PIV has either 27 or 33 gallons, but I’m not 100% sure. I have had just over 38 lbs (19 and 19.25 limits) in my livewell and I can tell you that was WAY to much fish volume.

I guess there is always a good side and a bad side to everything. The bad side to this would be guys that have GOOD livewells in that 30-35 gallon range and risking 2 limits in the boat over that. The good side is it would help police inadequate livewells. I’d be VERY cautious about it, and like Buzz said not sure this is teh way to go.

Like Eric said, it would be hard to enforce. My guess is after a few years the DNR would be bored with it and won’t want to take guys fish out of the boat to weigh them and then do the math on the livewell.

Chuck

Quote:

---

That may be a pproposed rule but I see it real hard to enforce and police.

---

Wouldn’t be hard to enforce if the tournament directors require that is what you have. Tournaments would likely be the ones to require it, and check it. Maybe I am wrong, but I would think thats the way it would be done, not so much from a DNR enforcement action.

Most likely this rule would be pushed by lakeshore associations who don’t want tournaments on their lakes. The Lake Vermillion Sportsmen’s Club, tried to get the County and DNR to require bottled oxygen.

I can easily see a situation where they would force the DNR to enforce this.

What tournament director in their right mind would willingly falsify livewell capacities, just to get a permit. It could result in never getting another. The time to speak out on this subject is now and not put our heads in the sand.

Buzz is there some write up somewhere on this that people can read and track proposed changes for tournaments?

Jesse, so what would the TD require me to have? 24 gallons? 30 gallons? 40 gallons? Who decides if 30 gallons isn’t enough prior to the tournament if the rule only states “1 gallon per pound of fish”?

My Ranger 620 has like a 20 gallon in back. but if you think about it if you need a 40 gallon livewell thats adding 320 lbs to the boat.

For those of you that think the MN and WI DNR don’t cooperate think again. The Livewell size was a huge issue when the Culling study was done here in WI.

Many of the same questions were asked and answered. Some saw controls as a way to protect fish while others saw it as a way to harass tournament anglers.

One thing is for certian. Do not focus completely on one issue or portion of any of the proposals that either of these DNR submit. One of the more consistant behaviors that I have seen from them is inserting something that is quaranteed to cause a rucus and attrack attention away from less obvious (and often more dangerous)parts in the proposal.

All in all they are tricky little buggers.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

That may be a pproposed rule but I see it real hard to enforce and police.

---

Wouldn’t be hard to enforce if the tournament directors require that is what you have. Tournaments would likely be the ones to require it, and check it. Maybe I am wrong, but I would think thats the way it would be done, not so much from a DNR enforcement action.

---

Well you tell me then how they will check livewell capacity on 20-150 boats in the darkness of the a.m. when time is already extremely pressing. They’d have to measure each livewell to figure out the volume. Then what? Record that and compare to their weight that they bring in, in the afternoon?
Or do you think the tournament director will “require” it and it will just be another rule printed that we sign under? If so, thats my point. Thats not enforcing.
This is jusy another foolish idea to make things harder than they already are. If all people would leave their livewell aereators running all day and pump out half of the water and pump in new ocasionally, it doesn’t matter so much how many gallons per pound, bla bla. IMO.

Quote:

---

For those of you that think the MN and WI DNR don’t cooperate think again. The Livewell size was a huge issue when the Culling study was done here in WI.

Many of the same questions were asked and answered. Some saw controls as a way to protect fish while others saw it as a way to harass tournament anglers.

One thing is for certian. Do not focus completely on one issue or portion of any of the proposals that either of these DNR submit. One of the more consistant behaviors that I have seen from them is inserting something that is quaranteed to cause a rucus and attrack attention away from less obvious (and often more dangerous)parts in the proposal.

All in all they are tricky little buggers.

---

Good point. I overlooked that.

In closing on the livewell thing, if it was made mandatory, I think it’d be just another rule that doesn’t get enforced. First couple tourneys they’d talk about it a little and then it would go right under the carpet like some other stupid rules.

Perhaps the greatest folly committed by politicians is creating laws that they know, prior to passing, will not be obeyed. Whether it is culling or prohabition it is a mistake to create a law that will force otherwise law abiding people to choose to disobey, thus creating a riff between enforcement agencies and the people they represent.

I posted all the new proposed rule changes on this board last week.10/4/2007 Document2
6212.2500 PERMIT CONDITIONS. Repeal
6212.2525 PERMITTED FISHING CONTESTS
Subpart. 1. Limitation on number of boats. Contest participation will be limited to not more than one boat for each ten acres of contest water.
Subpart 2. Equipment Requirements for Live Release.
A. The live-well and fish-holding equipment requirements under items B and C are mandatory for all live-release contests to minimize negative impacts to fish.
B. Boat live-wells and holding tanks shall:
(1) Have at least one gallon of water per pound of fish held; and
(2) Be equipped with a functional water pump or circulation system capable of maintaining dissolved oxygen at five parts per million or higher.
Subpart 3. Contest Denials. Permits may not be issued for the following.
A. Tagging or marking fish for special contest rewards.
B. Contests being proposed on waters managed for trout, except Lake Superior.
C. Contests that promote or allow fizzing (the act of inserting a needle into the fish’s gas bladder).
D. Contests were boat take-off procedures result in unsafe boating.
E. Contests where use of live bait may cause increased mortality.
F. Contests on waters where the commissioner determines the activity may compromise the fish management or research data being collected.
G. Contests that the commissioner determines will have excessive negative impact to fish and fish habitat.
H. Contests on opening days, holidays, and other high use periods that the commissioner determines result in unacceptable safety risks.
Subpart 4. Permit Conditions.
A. Conditions may be specified in the permit for the following areas for the purposes provided in 97C.081, subd. 4.
1. Seasonal and daily restrictions;
2. Geographical restrictions;
3. Fish handling procedures;
4. Daily and possession limits;
5. Types of equipment;
6. Contest length, or
7. Treatments to prevent the spread of diseases and invasive species.
B. The commissioner shall consider the following criteria when determining conditions to be included in the permit:
1. Whether the activity will advance knowledge, understanding, interpretation, or management of a fish species, fish community, or water body;
2. Impacts on other public uses, research efforts, educational events, or management activities;
3. Impacts to spawning fish or areas, rice beds, critical habitat, or to the fish community;
10/4/2007 Document2
4. Whether the activity is detrimental or helps achieve management objectives for the specific water body;
5. Whether contest activities during high use periods are anticipated to cause unacceptable safety risks; and
6. Whether contest activities during high use periods are anticipated to cause user conflicts.
Subpart 5. Restrictions on weigh-ins.
A. Permits will not be issued to release walleye, sauger, and their hybrids (Sander genus within the Percidae family) alive after a weigh-in from:
(1) Memorial Day to Labor Day for all inland and border waters located in and south of Traverse, Grant, Douglas, Todd, Morrison, Mille Lacs, Kanabec,
and Pine counties, except Lake Mille Lacs.
(2) From June 14 to Labor Day for all other inland and border waters, including Lake Mille Lacs.
B. Permits will not be issued to release bass (Micropterus genus within the Centrarchidae family) alive after an off-site weigh-in during July and August for inland
and border waters, except Canadian border waters.
C. Permits will not be issued to release northern pike (Esox lucius) and trout and salmon (Salomonidae family) alive after an off-site weigh-in.
D. Permits for fishing contests involving muskellunge (Esox masquinongy) and sturgeon (Acipenseridae family) will only be issued for formats using immediate release
as defined in M.S. 97A.015, Subd.26C.
E. Notwithstanding items A-B, permits will not be issued to release fish alive after a weigh-in, except for immediate release at the location of where caught when water temperature or water quality conditions may lead to undue mortality of released fish.
F. Permits will not be issued to release fish alive after an off-site weigh-in when:
(1) 100 or more fish total will be weighed-in for the contest; or
(2) Fish will be held more than 2-1/2 hours from the time they leave the contest
waters until they are returned to contest waters.
G. Permits will not be issued to conduct an off-site weigh-in if the contest organizer cannot prevent the spread of invasive species or pathogens to other waters from
activities associated with the contest.
6212.2600 POSSESSION OF FISH.
For Text of Subps 1 – 2 see MR.
Subp. 3. Authority to hold and release fish. In contests where fish may be returned to the contest waters, the permittee may be authorized to hold healthy fish and release them immediately following weigh-in. Suitable release sites may be specified in the permit for
the purposes provided in 97C.081, subd. 4. The commissioner shall consider the following criteria to determine when a specific release location should be included in the permit:
1. water or habitat quality at or near release sites would result in undue mortality of
released fish;
2. barriers such as dams or channels that may limit natural fish movement or redistribution;
3. genetics of the contest fish and the fish population where they are being released;
4. preferred fish habitat, home range of the contest fish, or where the fish was caught is beyond what the fish species has been reported in the scientific literature to
reasonably navigate;
5. release of the contest fish at another location would lead to localized depletion of fish stocks from contest waters were the contest fish were caught and removed; or
6. release of contest fish may result in the spread of diseases or invasive species.
Subp. 4 Gifting and donating fish To prevent the waste of fish, the tournament organizer may be authorized in the permit to collect up to one limit of fish per contest participant for gifting to a non-profit
organization or institution. The organizer must submit a plan for collection and distribution at the time of application. Distribution of donated fish by the organizer or group receiving the donated fish must be at no cost.
16212.2700 CONTEST OPERATION.
Subpart 1. Restriction on use of public accesses. No contest may preempt use of a boat ramp or parking spaces at public access to contest waters. The organizer must submit a parking plan at the time of application for approval. The plan must include provisions for
utilizing the parking sites, off-site parking, and location of weigh-ins. Contests shall not
use more than 50% of the parking spaces at state-owned sites unless authorized in the permit.
1 Draft Version 1/2/07

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

That may be a pproposed rule but I see it real hard to enforce and police.

---

Wouldn’t be hard to enforce if the tournament directors require that is what you have. Tournaments would likely be the ones to require it, and check it. Maybe I am wrong, but I would think thats the way it would be done, not so much from a DNR enforcement action.

---

Well you tell me then how they will check livewell capacity on 20-150 boats in the darkness of the a.m. when time is already extremely pressing. They’d have to measure each livewell to figure out the volume. Then what? Record that and compare to their weight that they bring in, in the afternoon?
Or do you think the tournament director will “require” it and it will just be another rule printed that we sign under? If so, thats my point. Thats not enforcing.
This is jusy another foolish idea to make things harder than they already are. If all people would leave their livewell aereators running all day and pump out half of the water and pump in new ocasionally, it doesn’t matter so much how many gallons per pound, bla bla. IMO.

---

Eric needs a HUG!!!!!Tim…step and work your magic!!

For what it’s worth, I received my first permit for 2008 in the mail today and none of these specific changes were included.

Quote:

---

how much livewell space does a person need?
Thanks, Bill

---

It’s not intended to address the question of how much livewell a person needs…it’s intended to address the issue of how much water a fish needs.

But there would seem to be a potential work-around. A simple ‘add-on’ with an Oxygenator (puts micro bubbles into the water) would seem an easy fix…couple this with livewell water temp management and the occasional flush/re-fresh to remove the nitrogen build-ups and it would seem to be a ‘reasonable’ approach…plus, if it were me, I’d put a requirement in that each boat had to have a power pump out livewell…and it be functioning…

IF I were a DNR guy focussed on the welfare of the fish, this is the best I could ask…

and if I were a DNR guy, I’d be glad that all you tournament guys aren’t asking me what my mortality rates are from my DNR population surveys…

Not trying to knock anyone/any group…but there has to be a work around…and in my mind, the only way to get the DNR types to listen is to figure out how they see tournaments being ‘overly’ detrimental to their objectives…

But stuff like that takes data and a willingness to share/partner. I know tournament anglers, as avid conservationists, are not the hold up…what’s keeping the DNR from joining you all at the table?