DNR abuse of power….

OK,
I hate to use this forum as a sounding board but I have much bitterness built up and feel that this post might help relieve some stress. This being said…. Here we go.
I have been planning to fish the Pokegama Team Supreme tournament in the MN division all summer. This is a 2 day event on the same water in which I choose to take a weeks vacation to prepare and see what full attention to the fishery will produce. I spent this time with a fisherman I have long respected as both a fisherman and a quality uncle.
We get on the water Monday morning and start out to break down this ecosystem and define several patterns to put into practice on tourney day. This being said I have to define the water I am on. The name of the lake is Pokegama. This is a natural lake that is fed by the extreme northern part of the Mississippi river which has flowage in and around the lake. The river at this stage is about 30 yards across in the channel with flooded acres of rice which attracts and holds quality fish. As you all know I am at home on a river system so we choose to start there. We make our way to what I consider to be productive stretches of the river and proceed to define our goals. We head to some good looking cut bank and rice oxbows. We boat our first fish around 4lbs and then another in the 5lb range. We work this area thoroughly and get about 6 more carries and by the way we are getting bit we knew these were all quality fish. After spending about 12 hours on the water we are satisfied with our results so we call it a day and head in. Day 2 we head even further in to this system and find a couple lakes that are not listen in the maps we currently have. We proceed to work these areas over and have similar results. We wind up our day having defined 2 definitive patterns, have figured out what bates the fish are willing to eat in both high and low light conditions and color preferences. The speed of presentation and cadence in retrieve. We have basically locked every thing down to the finest detail and have about 20 fish waiting with 2 spots holding what we would consider winning weight. Day 3 we work on the lake having a difficult time being faced with a severe cold front. We manage a couple schools of fish but most were in the 3lb range. These would be quality in anyone’s book however they did not hold a candle to what we had going in the river. Day 4 we hit the shallows concentrating on reeds, pads, and docks. We find plenty of fish but once again they are much smaller than our other fish. Day 5 we reline all our rods, sharpen hooks, clean out the boat and get prepared for the tourney. Plenty of sleep and a good meal are one of the things that I often overlook. We watch the royals and Twins play a little baseball prior to turning in. The morning of the tournament we awake early and head to the landing. We get everything in order and draw our number. We draw number 6. Leaving in 6th place and having the fish going we had things couldn’t get any better….
As the Team Supreme staff checks the boats they make an announcement that the river is off limits. The only fishable area is the lake. Permits had already been issued and I had made several calls to confirm that the river would indeed be available. In practice we did see many boats in this area looking for fish as well. It seems the DNR pulled the permit and placed this river off limits upon there whim. As a result I hand my weigh slip back to the tournament director and withdraw from the tourney. They want to know what I am doing and I tell them I am going to go stretch my line on all the fish I passed on this week in practice. I leave at normal blast off time and head up the river to see how my preparations would have faired. The cold front was still upon us and the rain and wind was bitter cold. 54 was the high while we were out. Anyway, we head to our spots and livewell the fish we had going and the weight we expected was right on target. We head back to the ramp at what would have been the normal weigh in time. The tournament took 22lbs in 6 fish to win with a 5lb kicker which I was impressed with. We weighed our fish to see how we would have faired. Our weight for 6 fish was 27.1 lbs with our big fish weighing 6.12 all off our first couple spots.
Nevin and Team Supreme were apologetic and understanding and even agreed to refund our money. The problem here is that the DNR took its power and from my point of view abused it. They have had all year to define this area as off limits and even confirmed this with a permit and emails. To pull this area in short order sets a precedence that can not be ignored. The bottom line is that they do not want tournaments. This is fine but if this is the case then do it up front and not screw the little guy who spends his hard earned money and vacation to live his dream. What ‘s next. Are they going to ban tournaments and then follow this up with restrictions on guides to deny many of our friends and families the ability to make a living off the river. This definitely sends a message and for what ever reasons to change the rules at a moments notice is in my mind irresponsible and unethical. There has been talk of a new species which I can respect them for trying to protect but I assume this information has been available for much longer than a couple days…
Thanks for listening and I hope I did not burn to many bridges.
Jc

JC,
First off, great bag of fish anywhere. Your editorial on the power of the agency and their complete lack of respect for tournament anglers is well documented all across the country. I would have fished the lake myself and tried my best to put together a winning pattern there but that is a personal decision and I respect yours for what it is worth. We can all deal with rules if we know them up front but pulling the plug on the river so close to the tourney is poor judgement on the fish managers part. The WI BASS Federation is trying to get our DNR to adopt tournament regulations and a format that will allow among other things, culling.

This reminds me of an earlier post of mine that I relayed my experiences with politics taking precedence over good science in managing our resources. I do not know the whole story but I feel that in any case anglers and especially tournament anglers need to unite to give the agancy and state government a concerted voice that cannot be denied. In short you need numbers of sportsmen to get together to have a “larger” voice so they will be heard in a political sense. MN is an anomally in the political sense, (you had Jesse the Body as a Governor for lands sake!!). Sportsmen need to be brought together to address some of these issues on a united front and that means numbers. Start a petition and send it to all the outdoor organizations that you can to get the political clout that you need to make the State listen to you not from a recreational or sportsman piont fo view but rather a large number of voters that are united for one or many causes.

My two cents on this issue. Not an easy nut to crack but repeated bashing with a large hammer will crack the toughest nut in the bushel.

423:

I am confused as to your position. In that other post, you were dead set against regulation by “special interests” and only for change based on “science”, but here you are advocating preceisely special interests?

MossBoss,
I do not consider the sportsmen and women of America to be “special interest” groups. I feel that the sportsmen of America are the primary user group and more importantly the primary funding source for the management and protection of these resources. This may seem to be a contradiction of ethics but I feel that the sportsmen of America deserve to be heard seeing as they are the ones paying for the management of the resources of this great country. Tournament fishermen aside, resource regulations should be for the good of the resource and unless they restrict all access to the river in question for all boaters then I feel that tournament anglers are being targeted and I do not agree with that management approach. I also feel that if the restriction of a resource in the name of good science is done for the right reason then I am all for it but from the brief post by JC indicates it appears that the MN DNR made a judgement at the last minute and the reason for that restriction was unclear.

How much funding would the state agencies have for enforcement, regulatory administration, R&D, etc., of wildlife and resource management if the sportsmen stopped buying licenses because the agency has restricted the utilization of the resource by the sportsmen of this country. Our resources have been managed and the management paid for by the sportsmen of this country since Hecter was a pup and I do not think this particular case merits that agancy reaction at the last minute. If MDNR had made the river off limits form the start for the right reasons then this thread would not have been started but now that it has been started, lets talk about it and see if we can learn about the processes involved in managing the resources with a fair hand being dealt to all.

I think one thing that has to be taken into account is why they pulled the permit on the river. A simple call to the DNR HQ might determine that. I’m quite sure there is a reason no matter how foolish it is. Maybe Nevin at Team Supreme can send Pitbull up there to ascertain the reason for pulling the permit. Release the hounds!

Jeremy, you didn’t give anyone Strawberries up there did you?

I am hand picking them as you read this.
jc

The DNR?

Don’t even get me started… Suffice it to say, I’ve personally lost thousands of dollars because of them.

Part of the reason that I’ve decided to leave Wisconsin and move to Virgina is due to the DNR and their mistreatment of fishermen.

Down South, you pull into town, and the people love to have you. The TVA, the police the mayor the shop keepers -everyone!

Here, the DNR makes it nearly impossible to do business in sporting goods.

Put it this way, the DNR is flailing about looking for funding… Do you think for one moment that kicking your patrons in the cojones with such nonsense is good for fundraising? Uh, no.

Thanks,

OnTheWater

Quote:

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I think one thing that has to be taken into account is why they pulled the permit on the river. A simple call to the DNR HQ might determine that. I’m quite sure there is a reason no matter how foolish it is. Maybe Nevin at Team Supreme can send Pitbull up there to ascertain the reason for pulling the permit. Release the hounds!

Jeremy, you didn’t give anyone Strawberries up there did you?

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All right…who’s arse do i need to kick now!!!

i will just say this, I am bitting my tongue right now and it hurts.

thanks,

shane

All,

What has not been mentioned is how this tournament permit was used in this situation. Here is the first paragraph of the section on tournament on the MN DNR website http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fishing/tournaments/index.html
Fishing tournament regulations
2003-2004
Increased popularity of fishing contests (tournaments) during the past 10-15 years lead to greater conflicts between tournament anglers and other recreational users of lakes and, over the past several years, a call to reduce conflicts by changing tournament permitting rules. Working in conjunction with tournament organizers, and guided by public input, the DNR developed – and the 2000 legislature passed – the following changes to regulations pertaining to the DNR’s fishing contest permitting program. Tournaments conducted after December 31, 2000 are subject to these new regulations.

I interpret the intent of this regulation as a tool to control the number, location and size of tournaments in Minnesota. I’m a member of the MN BASS Federation who supported the legislation in good faith that it would be used in that context. Not as a fisheries management tool as was implied by the agency the altered the permit. In my eyes this is a total misuse of the intent of the regulation. I see this a serious abuse of authority and I suspect local political wrangling has something to do with it.

Please hold me so I don’t fall of my soap-box but here I go again. We anglers, weather you’re a tournament fisherman or not, need to set aside our differences and be sure this and other regulations aren’t misused again. We need to present a united front with political clout. Make sure that everyone you know knows what happened. Support the organizations that will address this issue with the DNR. Let you local DRN Fisheries people know what you think. Make your voice hear.

Well said, Riverfan.

Shane,
Stop biting your tongue, you could inflict some serious injury!

On a more serious note, can you lend any more information to the situation and why it the permit was changed at the last minute. I do not know your affiliation to the situation and don’t really care for that matter but I am concerned that agency personnel are potentially abusing their respective authority.

hey bass

the reason that I am bitting my tongue is because i have been harrased on the water by some officers of DNR and others will pull up and chat with you and offer you advice on how to fish the lake. some of them guys think because they have the little patch and work for the DNR, they rule the water! in which case they are trying to intimadate us into doing what they say for fear of losing something we like to do wether it is for enjoyment or seriously. i wouldn’t go as far as the agency itself abusing the power, i would look at the individual (S), I know that if they would have explained to each boater in that tourney as to why the river was banned, like not to disturb loon nesting areas or something like that. however to pull on the day of the tourney, i would have to look to the person incharge oversteped his bounds and didnt offer a good enough reason. I do not see how they were protecting the fishery of that lake in this decision. they only job it protect the resources, not take them away from the ones that enjoy them or protect them!!! with that said, now i can bandage my tongue!!

thaaanks!

shane

hello all this will be my first post ever but the subject demands my active voice. having fished a few tournaments on pokegama, i can’t believe they did that to you. the river is where the big ones are. you devoted all your attention to that water and for good reason. the worst place for tournaments because of the dnr is the river. no cull rules are ridiculous. we all know the arguments. we can’t release them but the fish are released after weighing. a rule like that is designed for one reason and one reason only. to make it unpleasant for tournament fisherman. the one set of people out there fishing that cherish the resource. meanwhile people are raping fish populations who have never heard or catch and release. if the dnr wants to regulate something on the river they should look to banning those 40ft monster boats whose minimum throttle waves could kill someone in an average weekend fishing boat. how many accidents are caused by people on jet skis and drunk ski boat drivers. now here’s a set of people who are messing up life for loons and people trying to have a fun time.

so why why does the dnr target tournament fisherman with neusanse rules that make little sense. for one they do have too much say is what goes on. second is there are just too many angry old ladies who have nothing better to do than sit out on the porch shaking their fists at boats passing by. then all i can figure is they knock down the doors of every law officer and politician.

fishermen need to stand up. were too scattered to have our opinions felt in the towns where we love to fish. something has to be done politically to stop the nonsense. we need to make sure it is known that we love the resource. and that we want to be able to enjoy it without silly rules designed to throw a pebble in our shoes.

so begins my postings. i shall keep those that follow much shorter

Post away Nitro03 and welcome to the site. I agree with your stance on creating a voice that is heard. It’s no different than hunters being the key contribution in preserving not only a sport, but the species. Fishing is the same way…………yet somehow………we get dubbed as a problem. Why? Well, let’s face it………….one bad tale, experience, or witnessed action and it rules the publicity. Doubt it? Watch any newscast………….read any paper……………Negative press gets all the attention.

This is a sore subject with me because it goes so much farther than just our outdoor past times…………..but I won’t expand that here.

Again, welcome to the message forums!

i have not posted for a long time at ftr but this post just blows my mind…to those of you who are bashing the dnr, i ask you this, why do you think that we have the dnr? They are put there to help protect our fisheries and to make our fishing better for the weekend angler and the tournament fisherman…i strongly think that jeremy crawford should call the local dnr office that issued the permit and ask them why they pulled it..what good does bashing them do if your not sure why they pulled it…like someone else stated, you dont even know the reason, maybe they have a perfectly logical reason…

I just hate it when people bash the dnr when they are here to help the public because the public cannot manage fisheries themselves

lastly, how can you call it an abuse of power?..i see it as the dnr using that power, although i dont know what for yet either

please someone call them and get the scoop

Interesting response, time to put in my 2 cents..I wouldn’t say that we are all here “bashing” the DNR. They do great things to help conservation and such, but as you can tell, many of us have had unpleasant run-ins with them. I can list several occassions where i’ve had bad experiences w/them. In my opinion, I think they aren’t targeting the right people to “use” their authority…For those who live in or around LAX, how many times do you see people fish the lock & damns, spillways etc….and watch them keep every fish that they catch..with no concern about size limits or bag limits…It disgusts me…but what can you do? overtake their fish and realease them? This is what the DNR should be using the power to enforce….that would help conservation efforts, instead of impeding tourney fisherman who in my mind, are top lobyists when conerning conservation efforts….

If anyone does find out why..please post…this is good conversation.

To clarify a little.
1. The DNR pulled the permit after is had already been issued.
2. This tournament and accompanying waters fall completely within MN state and local laws and guidelines.
3. They had all summer to pull this permit however chose to do it at the last minute eliminating all recourse.
4. The DNR verbally committed that they would be at the weigh in to explain what , why , when , and how this came about however did not fulfill there obligation.
5. Verbally mentioned to the tournament director that they had several calls from the Lake Association. Greasing the squeaky wheel I suspect.
6. They allow regular anglers to fish this water to catch and kill any and all of the fish obtained in pursuit of there daily limit while only targeting the local tournament anglers.
7. Declined every suggested alternative without ANY consideration. Thus indicating that they had already made up there mind. This is NOT and I repeat NOT supposed to be regulation off the cuff with regard to a single individuals opinion.

I can go on for a while however I will stop here. The DNR was formed to manage “OUR” fisheries with regards to the “WHOLE” not to regulate based on any special interest groups nor with any prejudice. This whole incident sets a precedence for any and all tournament fisherman. This is a sport that we love and in pursuit of this passion we pump hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions into local economies and to the DNR to fund support and to protect “OUR” (not just the people who live on the lake) wildlife. Now I don’t mean to make a broad all encompassing accusation however I do know unequivocally that the majority of our DNR and fishery management officials would have made Just and nonbiased decisions in this case. The DNR needs to have some checks and balances in place to keep specific key individuals from acting as Judge and Jury.
Jc

10^6 dittos, JC & Slop Bass.

OTW

I know I have posted on this thread before and stated my opinions regarding the issue but for a little clarification, I offer the following response to the previous nitro post. The no-cull rules have been in place in most Midwestern states for many years. All state wildlife agencies are in charge of protecting our natural resources based on sound scientific and management stratgies. The no-cull rule was originally intended to restrict fishermen from catching a legal fish and taking it into possession and replacing it with a larger one later in the day. Until recently (the last 15 years or so) most of these fish were put onto a stringer or in a wire basket over the side of the boat and not into a livewell system. While this practice may appear to keep these fish alive, it puts so much stress on the fish that if they were released they most times are dead or die later after release.

The advent of livewell systems and live release chemicals that actually help to reduce the stress and provide a living environment for the fish. These livewell systems allow effective catch and release of fish that actually stand a good chance (>50% rate) of survival. The agency officials that I have talked with over the years are really not concerned with tournament fishermen abusing a culling rule but rather the general public that use the old fashioned stringer/wire basket and catch a limit of gamefish and keep fishing for bigger ones and then release a fish on a stringer and replace it with a larger one. The fish coming off the stringer is usually dead or very stressed and the impacts to the fishery could be significant. Hence a rule prohibiting everyone from “sorting” fish in the strategy to protect our resources especially at the times when many of our gamefish species are very vulnerable such as spawning, migrating, etc.

I feel that an effort needs to put forth to change these rules for certain situations including tournaments. Now this is going to sound like a special interest concession but in a broader sense all fishermen with adequate livewell systems could conceivably provide a relatively “life sustaining environment” to allow adequate survival rates after release that would have less impact to the fishery. While this issue has sparked much debate within the agencies and fishing organizations we should not forget that in the end most of the agency officials are primarily concerned with fishery health and sustainability. I say most because some agency officials are actually against any harvest and embrace a philosophy that would inlcude more restrictive or non-harvest regulations.

There are many compelling arguements on both sides of the issue, enough to fill many threads and I feel they are worthy of discussion.

Bottom line for me is that if a rule applies to all users equally and without prejudice then I can live with it if it is for the right reason. To restrict a tournament fisherman from fishing a certain body of water without equal restriction from the general public is plain and simple authoritative prejudice.

jeremy,
so let me get this straight, are you saying that because you spend more money that you have more rights than the average joe?

How ya doin’ Jerad? Good to see you’re still checking in with us! Let me see if I can help this a bit.

I think the argument isn’t about more rights as what he’s trying to point out equal rights. Maybe that started to become the idea from the other mentioned ideas about culling but in regard to this specific incident, there’s no mention of being more deserving, just equally deserving.

If a section was okay 24 hours earlier, what changed? And in the name of equality, why were recreational anglers permitted to fish the retracted area? There’s no added danger to the fishery comparing pro treatment of fish vs. weekend warrior fish. You have to know this as true. Education, study, research, and development are strongly conducted through the monitary investment of a pro angler. Honestly, the DNR should see them as allies and embrace what could be a very beneficial relationship.

When the budget cuts come rolling down, wouldn’t it be nice to know research could still be conducted through pro anglers? Listen to the in depth conversations about bass and walleye that take place on this site. Most would jump at the chance to be involved with some research! Talk about getting a leg up on behaviors and patterns for the next tournament!

No, not everyone is perfect and maybe this is why both sides have some bitterness, but let’s face it…………….this incident was handled poorly, no matter who or what department is/was responsible for it.

I know this is of personal interest to you Jerad. It’s right up your alley. But think about it objectively. Don’t get caught up in any paradigms about an us/them issue. You’re pursuing what you love most and you have the chance to make a difference in doing so. Examine both sides, understand both sides, and strive for solutions that benefit both sides.

Because of the political association, I expect the challenge to come with difficulty. But don’t let that stop you. Take it beyond the point of discovery and make a better tomorrow. You can……………and if you believe it, you will.

Good luck out there!

Ken

PS – 85% of our occupational success is determined by people skills. – Robert Kiyosaki

this is a great discussion we’re all having. good post bass423 i do understand how the rule came to be and its purpose. and we all must admit that tournament fishermen basically require adequate livewells when holding fish to be released. and unfortunately while all the goobers with a stringer will continue to cull regardless of this law are getting away with it, us tournament guys are being put into a mind boggling situation. do i put this one in the live well? will i catch any more today? is there some guy out there culling with no way to call him on his dishonesty? when there is money involved i simply can’t trust everyone i dont know. it is just a bad tournament scenario that will eventually lose surrounding economies tons of money down the road. i know the common response to fishing the federation state tournament on the river this year is that they hate this no cull and that they never want to have a tournament where there is such a rule ever again.

the rule has got to go for tournaments. its just seems like a flexing of the dnr muscle if you ask me.

anyways i’ll be leaving tomorow morning early to come pre fish for the federation state tourny. maybe i’ll see some of you out there. good luck fishing everybody. and thank god for some cool air finally.

What gets me is that you can be surprised by this, and live in such close striking distance of Lake MacBride.

Government OF (some) People, FOR (some) People, and BY (some) People… that’s the Lake Association Motto.

What was the reason for changing the permit given by the DNR? Did anybody else ask for there money back?

This topic dead???? We have ppl with a lot to say, but what are the facts???? Or are we sweeping it under the rug??

Does BigDaddy280 know anything to enlighten us on the subject?

TTT??????????????

??????????????????

hey who’s nitro03..stealing my name…just kidding…