Fish Kill After Stren Event

how is the DNR going to get an accurate count of how many bass died if they don’t put them in an area they can be monitered im not saying the black is the best place to release them i said that they need a place to moniter bass. I would guess they thought it was a descent place to release fish they needed a convinent spot for a study and thats where they took them to be monitered. If you wanna go blaming the DNR or blaming me for my oppinon thats fine i can take all the crap you wanna throw at me. If you can’t accept that some bass died do to the tournament thats fine with me. I have had the same oppinion since this thread was started and don’t count on changing it. this is what i think!

Are my thoughts “way out there”, or are they valid? Hummmm…. what do you think?

I have an idea for another DNR study. How about doing the exact same study but this time clip the tails on THE DNR’S fish and leave our TOURNAMENT fish tails in TACT! I have witnessed DNR clipping tails two years ago at Lake Geneva following a tournament and saw exactly how they clip (see picture). I can tell you that if you chop off 3 of my toes and it was up to me to chase down food in the woods I probably wouldn’t be eating for a few days. I would probably be freaked out just by the fact that I’m not as fast as I was and have lost my burst-speed for capturing my food like I use to. Talk about stress!!! And STRESS was a major factor as to why these fish died. Maybe starvation as well. The bass didn’t start showing up dead until a few days following the tournament, right?

Or, I sure wish we could get samples of the water that was in the holding tanks of the transport boats throughout the entire release period. Don’t roll your eyes. I can suggest that the dead fish are due to tainted water in the holding tanks as easily as some peta freak can blame it on tournament-related stress.

Show me proof. The only REAL live proof I have as of right now is the bass fishing in the LAX area is at it’s BEST and continues to gets better. Why is that not enough proof to believe that us “tournament guys” aren’t hurting the fishery??? I know, I know the proof is five hundered and some dead bass with clipped tails. But that doesn’t tell me what killed the clipped-tailed fish.

Here are the last 3 Strens held in LAX…

2006 Day 1- 151 out of 200 Limits = 76% caught limits

2006 Day 2- 147 out of 200 Limits = 74% caught limits

2005 Day 1- 99 out of 184 Limits = 66% caught limits

2005 Day 2- 91 out of 184 Limits = 60% caught limits

2001 Day 1- 26 out of 151 Limits = 17% caught limits

2001 Day 1- 23 out of 151 Limits = 15% caught limits

(I know 2001 was a different time of the year)

I started fishing tournaments because I LOVE bass fishing and spend countless hours every summer chasing what I love. Because of this I learned how to catch them and thought it would be even more fun to see how well I can catch them compared to other guys who love to catch bass. I still love to catch bass and will do whatever is nessessary to ensure I and future generations will be able to experience the same as I.

Why must people continue to think us “tournaments guys” don’t care about the fish???

Nort, the email slop posted said they used a paper punch to mark the tails, I assume a paper punch is one of those which punches a little hole? So I don’t know that they clipped the tail in the matter mentioned.

The release point would not be my first guess as to cause of death, but I suppose it could contribute. The amount of handling the fish got after riding all day in a boat (long weigh in lines, then weighed, then each clipped, then wait to be realeased, IMO probably played at least as much of a role in their death as the day in the livewell. This is all specualtion of course as I was not there to see the handling of the fish, but it seems like they probably had a pretty lengthy and stressful stay on land after leaving the boat and before release.

Is there any truth that all of the dead fish found were largemouth? If that’s the case, it’s probably a situation where factors including water temperature, air temperature, and significant time spent in the livewells put enough stress on these fish to kill them…but if it was only largemouth, the presence of LMBV could have killed these fish? I don’t think its earth shattering news that you’re going to have mortality after a tournament like this. It’s JULY! The resource couldn’t handle it every weekend, but once a year isn’t going to put a dent in it.

Thanks Moss. I didn’t come across that. I still think that removing any part of the fish to mark it is a bad idea.

I wonder what it would be like for a diver that needs flippers to maneuver, if you punched about a 3″ hole in one of his flippers (proportional to a hole punch vs. bass tail)? Could he still maneuver? Sure. Would he know something is wrong…ABSOLUTELY!

I just don’t like how the tournament fish were the ones which were deformed (I can’t think of the right word). Why not implement a procedure which has the same effects on both sets of fish (DNR shocked vs. tournament fish) like tagging with numbers or something…

I talked to Dave Washburn of FLW Outdoors earlier. They are aware of the situation and are doing some investigating as well. They are gathering info from the DNR and will do their part I’m sure.

Couple quick points he mentioned.

1- FLW had no control over the fish once they hit the bass taxi’s, nor where they were released. It was under DNR control.

2- FLW is going to work with the DNR to have those dead fish replaced. (i’m assuming by a hatchery program of some kind?)

Like I said, just an FYI….

Mack, I am going to start off the reply by stating this is only personal experience and not scientific. But, I believe and have witnessed any released fish to mostly swim up current when released. I think it is ANY fishes nature to swim up stream until they find a suitable resting/ feeding spot which they are satisfied with. Like I said…this is only my opinion from what I have seen (I’m probably giving away good info here ).

Here are my beliefs as to what happened to the 3000 fish. If in fact all 3000 were released in the Black River, I don’t care if they were 30 yards from a slough under the railroad trestle (Am-Watson’s post) I still believe the majority of those fish relate to current and no matter what will turn and head up river. This means within hours there could possibly be THOUSANDS more fish hovering near the Black River Spillway with not enough food.

Like I said, I’m not hating on anyone…just stating what I believe happens.

If you google fish tagging in some way, you will see there are many links out there to some research already being done with fish tagging. I also saw a link somewhere (can’t for the life of me remember where) to a site where you can by tags and tag your own fish. They also provide a website to enter the number of the tagged fish when you catch / re-catch them to provide statistical data. From what I can tell, it’s a small tag on the dorsal fin that it’s easy to insert with the applicator.

Media coverage of this (or more so the WAY it was convered) might be causing some over-reaction to this. However that may be a good thing. It’s better to be proactive in situation such as this. As several has mentioned, this is the only tournament we’ve seen such a buzz about this. Even if all the other tournaments on the river aren’t seeing this problem, what would happen if they started seeing these mortalities? It would be nice if we (BASS, FLW, anglers in general, DNR, etc) could all band together BEFORE it’s a major problem (more than a few isolated incidents) and try to resolve this. This also brings up, where is FLW’s response to this? I’m not saying that they aren’t stepping up, but it seems the FLW and BASS (at all levels) would have the biggest helping hand in this. If the procedures used to do the test aren’t up to snuff, then let’s see FLW kick in some $ next year to by tags and peoples time to make it better. Note that Slop made the post above as I was typing this, so he has provided some FYI already.

I also wanted to post a comment made on another board about this. This thing is ALL over the net. Some of you may know who /edited/ Ralph /edited/ Mann’s is. The guy has an unbelievable knowledge of fish and this sport. I have the utmost respect for this guy. Although I hate to hear some of what he is saying, my respect for him makes me listen.

Quote:

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Submitted by Ralph Manns from TX

says An Inconvenient Truth

“While I agree with Tim that over-reaction may be a problem, in this case at least some reaction is called-for.

We have scientific data showing the LMBV is found almost everywhere and that it has been associated with excessive post-tournament disease and deaths following summer events and livewell incarcerations. While we await further scientific data on the impact of LMBV on events held in cooler water, it is only prudent to stop putting bass in livewells when lake water is over 76 degrees if we don’t want to kill our tournament catches.

While some summer contests may not have such huge post -release mortality, and some deaths will go unobserved and unreported so that the press isn’t negative, there is little doubt that summer tournaments kill bass. Nor is there much doubt that summer mortality goes way-up now that we have the LMBV in our lakes. As it is, plan to kill summer tournament fish and at least feed the orphans with them.

STOP holding summer live-release events at any level: National, State, or Club. If you can’t abide using paper event techniques, stay home.

Immediately release any warm-water bass you want to survive. Immediate release apparently does not stress the bass enough to cause a LMBV disease onset, but putting bass in livewells magnifies and spreads the virus. We also need more data on this situation, but it is based on existing data.”

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I’m done with trying to point out faults at this point. How can I help with improving the mortality rate?

One other thing to mention. There are some anglers that don’t believe there is a problem period and only isolated incidents are brought to the top. If we could combine mortality research with additional fishery improvements (something such as the BudWeiser Share Lunker Program in TX) so that the mortality studies also combine genetic improvements to our fisheries, I believe we could gain even more support.

Fluker

I know who Tom Manns is…but who is Ralph Manns?

Ralph Manns is a biologist with the Texas Fish and Game Department (I think), and a contributer to In-Fisherman Magazine. He also posts alot on the Bass fishing home page.

PS, I don’t see complete evindence of what he appears to have a pretty concrete opinion on. I guess the bigger question is, what is an acceptable loss in a tourney? 20%? 10? 5? 0?

i’ve heard several stories but i think that the black river is to shallow and doesn’t have enough current the tournment down here didn’t lose w=any fish that week because they put them back into the mississippi because thats where they came from

Simple way to keep this from happening again, and again…

Stop having hot summer bass tournaments.

Makes me sick to see these bass killed for the sake of what? Local economy? Egos? This tournament deserves all the heat it gets over this.

What a waste of our resource.

Yea, I know you don’t want to hear my opinion, but there it is!

Take a kid fishing.

I just hope you feel the same way for every catch and kill walleye tournament. They surely must have the same ego’s to not care about the resource huh?? Granted the food goes to a pantry, but that still does nothing for the resource. Nobody seems to care about those tournies though. Does that make you sick too?

–Just wondering if you have equal distaste for both groups of anglers. Thanks.

Kwikstic- I took a kid fishing yesterday. As a matter of fact, our BASS CLUB and my place of employment took a hand full of Big Brothers Big Sisters kids out fishing yesterday. We all volunteer our time to give some inner-city and less fortunate kids a chance to fish and experience the same passion we all have.

I personally spent just over $170 last week buying fishing poles for the kids to keep, tackle boxes for them to keep, disposable cameras for them to keep, and all the live bait. I am SICK of you guys bashing us BASS guys for not caring!!!

so;

Bottom line…….

What is the answer?

A lot of assumptions have been thrown out on the table with some facts……..

But what is the answer?

Gary,

We won’t have “answers” for some time yet. I’m sure they are still testing all the bass for LMBV, etc..etc…Weeks yet I would imagine.

Thanks Slop!
That’s what I thought!

In all honesty, we will likely never have the answer. Too many variables involved.

One thing I would like to know, how was the clipping and tagging done? How much stress did that add to the situation and how much negative effect? How much increased time did it add to the weigh in proceedings? Could the weigh in proceedings have been streamlined? How much mortality is do to factors from hookset to check in, and how much during and post weigh in?

Slop, as a matter of fact I feel exactly the same way about walleye tournaments.

I don’t care what species and I’ve never ever uttered a negative word about either groups.

I’m just average joe who loves to get out once in a while to try to catch a bass or walleye. The thought of 600 (that we know of) dead legal bass (could be walleyes) from one tournament seems like a hell of a waste.

Does it not to you guys?

What is your solution?

In order to find a correct solution all the facts must be laid on the table first. If that ever happens then we can all clearly and logically enforce the proper corrective actions to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

Priority #1- the bass!

A waste no, very dishearting news yes.

If these fish do have LMBV in them, which we do not know at this time, then a some point that fish would’ve been stressed and died. Stress comes in many forms…a couple years ago on pool 10 a large portion of bass died b/c of the LMBV and stress caused by over crowding in wintering areas.

I hate to see any dead bass and for that matter gamefish. This past winter was the first time in over 5 yr. I kept anything for the table. I have fished the river since I was 2 yr. old and my family has a cabin in PDC, so I get to see and hear a lot of things. The fishing is at it’s best as it ever has been…and PDC has numerous tournies and has had a fish kill.

I don’t think their will ever be a clear cut solution to things like this, because no matter what happens, not everyone will be happy.

Things that can be done to correct things like this from happening: more efficient and fish savy weigh in procedures, education of anglers on fish care. I did a research project my sr. year in high school on the LMBV and learned a lot, I will see if I can find it.

I think that is is very important for tournament fisherman to take this problem head on. I fished the Stren like many here and was not impressed with the weigh in and release procedure. I think it is totally up to us to be proactive with this issue and find ways to correct it. Wheather or not the dead fish were a by product of culling or the way the DNR handled is a point that needs to be addressed. But the bigger issue is what will the tournament community on the river do to prevent this from happening again? The tournament community as a whole? I really think it is up to us to solve this issue whether we have all the facts or not. I hate to sound like a supervisor but we can make this negative into a positive. But let’s not wait.
TBASS

I just got off the phone with Ron Benjamin of the WI-DNR LAX about this whole issue. We had an hour long discussion on most everything that was brought up above….I want to first thank him for an excellent conversation and I’m going to try and relay some of the facts/misconceptions that even I raised questions about.

As far as the Penned fish

-The Pens were 12×12 in size, not 8×8 as the Tribune reported.

-the first 100 tourney bass weighed in were the bass put into the pens.

-10% of the Control Fish died.

-18% of the tourney fish died.

-The D.O.(dissolved oxygen) content never reached below 6.0, which is more than enough oxygen. He advised that this remains true in the water column to about 15 ft. (in the black)

So to answer my own question on whether the black can sustain that many fish??—he answered YES

As far as the tagged/released fish

He didn’t have exact numbers, but they “punched” an estimated @3400 Bass. All Bass were released from South of the I-90 Bridge to the Power Plant right near the east channel.

The “punched” hole was approx. 1/8″ in diameter. Ron actually timed the sequence to punch these fish and it took right around 40 seconds to do so. They dumped a bag of fish into rubber net and were punched accordingly. (about 5 at a time) They were not individually pulled and punched.

Other Interesting Points

-They completely expected to have a fish die off of this magnitude. They are not shocked by this at all.

-Last year, 100% of all the dead fish had LMBV

-They anticipate the #’s this year to be similar, if not the same.

-LMBV is prone to “kill” once water temps reach 75 degrees or higher. Per every degree rise of water temps, mortality numbers will increase as well.

-Just b/c a bass has LMBV doesn’t mean it’s going to die.

-LMBV typically will remain dormant in water temps < 70degrees. It can still be spread, but no symptoms will be prevelant.

-While Still UNKNOWN at this time, they believe Smallmouth can carry the virus, but show no symptoms from having it.

We also discussed the offsite weigh in at Wal-mart for days 3 and 4. I think it was safe to say that these fish were most likely the most stressed due to the pro-longed trip etc..etc…Despite having a water weigh in and such. These fish were punched the same, but it would have been interesting to see how many of the day 3 and 4 bass ended up being part of the total kill. Logic would say that it is possible that the day 3 and 4 bass would make up nearly HALF of the total dead fish….BUT, we won’t know b/c those fish were punched just the same as day 1 and 2 fish. We both agreed there was no way to tell, even though it would have been nice to have known.

Did he think the fish kill has an adverse effect on our fishery? Not at all…He said the water is too big for a kill off like we had to have much effect. Especially just 1 tourney….

He advised that there are still more studies to be done, but fish dying after a tournament is normal and expected. They know that, We know that. MORE SO however when tournaments are held in EXTREME HEAT CONDITIONS!! He also acknowledged that fish die from being caught period, for numerous reasons…That’s just the way it is. We both agreed that we need to learn from these studies and do what we can to minimize the mortalities.

Lastly, he advised that the public reaction might not have been as bad had the tribune gotten all the facts before printing their article. They were supposed to wait and meet w/the DNR to have them lay everything out on the table, but that simply didn’t happend and we got what we got.

Feel free to call and talk to him as well, he expects many more calls like mine…

He also encourages anglers to rinse their livewells out with 1 cup bleach per gallon of water in your livewlls to help prevent the spread of LMBV

The reason the fishing is still great in the area is because 600 dead bass is just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of bass out there. Plus….for every bass that is killed….it just means a little more area and food for the rest of the bass.

The info is out there about the affects of tournaments in hot weather. This is nothing new. I will post up some links so you can read it for yourselves.

“So to answer my own question on whether the black can sustain that many fish??—he answered YES “
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/meetings/96meet/gillilan.htm

Thank you.

Quote:

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“So to answer my own question on whether the black can sustain that many fish??—he answered YES “
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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So my opinion was that I didn’t think it could…You thought otherwise…I was wrong, not the first time.

You don’t have to be an about it.

i guess i’m just an oh well. my point is that tons of people in every forum have been blaming this on the black river……I STATED FROM THE GET GO THAT WAS NOT A FACTOR…but people continue to throw that out…besides no one else gloats when there right on this site i just found it interesting and that was all. when people jump down my throat for stating my opinion, as everyone else is, i just feel great knowing what i knew, was right.

Well I guess your the man afterall then

There’s no doubt I QUESTIONED it, but there is nothing wrong with that. You got all up in arms in your PM to me yesterday about it. People have different opinions on things, just b/c you end up being correct doesn’t make you holier than thou. At least I took it upon myself to make the call and ask the questions and get the answers I was looking for. I’m glad you feel great about yourself.