fall bass and shad migration.

The fall migration:

For those of you whom are already lost than please move to the next post. For those who have seen the shad, smallies, and largewmouth make seasonal movements towards the shallow in the fall exhibiting spawning like behavior than I ask you weather in your opinion these fish are being triggered by photo period or water temp. Next it has been documented that female smallies often are filleted and are noticed to have eggs again. It is also been documented that roughly only 25% of the smallies spawn in a given year.
Can anyone give me there opinion as to why this happens and weather in your opinion this simple hormones or are fish susceptible to biological changes based on an ever changing weather pattern.
I hope I didn’t lose anybody.
Jc

Instinct,evolution has instilled all those inner drives in every species.Bass and chad are just like catfish and the walleyes and saugers. The amount of day light plays a mayor part on when this starts.Temps are involved but why do we have leaves starting to turn every year in the middle of Aug.?? Our ask any comm. fisherman when the mud cat and channel cat make thier move to winter and they can tell you with in a few days of when it well start and end.Bass follow the food sorce and they are putting on the feed bag just like all the other animals in order to survive the long winter a head.Finding the eggs in the fish in the fall,mother nature just doesn’t have things happen overnight I think and it takes time for this process to start and finsh.Look at saugers in Dec. they are full of eggs.Just a few quick thoughts on the subject guys.This question has a lot of different answers and directions it could go.A lot of food for thought for a slow day at work!Tight lines this fall to everyone !!!!!

This is a good point, so many people emphasize water temp with seasonal bass movements, but I believe the length of daylight is more important than this. Just as a reference I know for a fact that various hatcheries can get bass in captivity to spawn more often than once a year by simulating seasonal changes and varying the number of hours of light per day where the fish are kept. And back to the topic of shad migration, if you observe it over a number of years I think you will notice that the start of migration is more consistent with the date of year than with the water temp.

I think you are right that day length has more to do with overall seasonal migrations and movements than temperature, though I think temperature (and moreso on the river, current and water levels) has alot to do with daily movement of bass. I do think temperature plays a major role in initiating the actual act of spawning though.

I think much of the movement of bass into the shallows late summer/fall has to do with following the food more than anything.

As far as the spawn in bass in the fall, being a cold water fish, the bass’ metabolizm is very slow in the winter. I bet the spawn is already being produced for next spring in the previous fall.

Your observation on only 25% of female smallnouth spawning in a given year is very interesting, where did you read that?

Dr. Mark Ridgway ,
He is a specialist on smallies especiially in the realm of spawning. the reference is from. Ridgway, M.S. and B.J. Shuter. 1994. “The effects of supplemental food on reproduction in parental male smallmouth bass.” Environmental Biology of Fishes 39:201-207.

I like your hypothesis on the formation of eggs starting in the fall. I succumb to the rational as well. I do however like to have some sort of proof without having to clean a couple of these fish and hope that I am getting the females. I am sure there are some catch and keep anglers reading this post, Since I release more than anyone fair share maybe you could help us out be offering your finding when cleaning fall smallies.

There has been mention many times over that the movement for bass in the fall is to follow the food source however this does not explain seeing males starting to make beds again and even posturing in a defensive mode. Next if some are only following the food source than what variables are causing the shad, crayfish, etc to migrate into the backwaters. I am not talking out of current but up every tributary that has water clean up the backs of creeks. Theres times when you can’t float you boat shallow enough… (oh wait, that’s all year) Anyway the only food source available in quantity in the fall is the Rice Worm and as far as I know they are not common until you are in Oligotrophic ecosystems. I suppose its possible there is some spill over but I can’t seem to think of any areas that have rice in them at all. If anyone knows of a location I’ll make the trip up there and collect samples.

Off the wall question, What’s up with the mini lobsters I have been seeing lately. I swear they are 10 inch crayfish and bright red. Hhhmmm.
Jc

tudies from New York indicat that Smallies may have eggs in as many as six or seven stages of development in their overies at any given time, the “over ripe” ones being re absorbed and the next in line of development replacing them.

I am starting to feel like I am talking to myself.. The voices are starting to get louder.
jc

I can’t help you with the cleaning of the bass, the only one I kept last year was a smallie hooked in the gills on a Fluke that was bleeding like a stuck fish!!

The one thing that comes to mind on the migration deal is that shad feed primarily on zooplankton I believe. Zooplankton feed on phytoplankton, which would likely grow better in the warmer shallows in the fall. Maybe?

As far as the nesting and defensive posturing, I guess I have never seen it. You much have clearer water down there than we have up here!! LOL Other than that, I have no idea why they would be doin this.

I have to start flipping more rocks over. I haven’t seen these huge crawdad’s, but I have not looked either. HMMMMM. I know they change color throughout the year and depending on location though. Maybe we need to start using bigger baits!!

I have noticed a fall migration of shad into backwaters areas but have never observed the “spawning” behavior that you are referring to? This last weekend on Pool 10 I saw a few clouds of shad in a backwater on Sunday. The LM were having a field day with them. All of the fish I caught from this backwater were jammed full and looked like spawn-ripe females but I expect that this was not the case. It takes quite a while for a fecund female or male for that matter, to recover from the spawn in the spring and then regain enough nutrition to begin the egg or milt production process. I believe this egg production usually happens about mid-summer when they are really on the feed. The fish that will be spawning next spring will have eggs or milt in the fall or right now but I have never seen anything in print eluding to a fall spawning season for northern bass. I suspect that this phenomenon is not probable given the water temperatures over winter in WI. Mother Nature or more likely evolution has programmed the fish to spawn at a time when the offspring have the best chance for survival which would be in the spring not fall.

I do not claim to know this for a fact but I am a biologist and through all of the literature I have reviewed over the years I have never heard of a fall spawn in the northern tier of states. I hope this answers one of your questions or hypotheses about fall spawning.

It seems you missed the question, It was to define why these fish were shallow. Not weather or not they spawn. It is obvious that they do not (at least to my knowledge) The question is what draws them into the extreme shallow mimicking the locations they would be found in the spring and why did the females have eggs. I found the answer to the eggs question which I posted as a follow up.
I understand that the milt must be developed in the summer and / or fall since they are cold blooded and thus unable to create enough milt and eggs for spawn.
As for males on the beds, I have see them and witnessed defensive posturing while being on a clean swept sand flat. Call it what you will but a male bass only acts like this if he thinks he is protecting his little bachelor pad. All animals are effected by photoperiod and thus make instinctual movements in direct correlation to this and other factors. Do you think the photoperiod has something to do with the tendency for shad to head shallow in the fall and or does it apply to the Large and / or Small mouth or even insects triggering a mass feeding that just happens to be shallow.

In reference to spawn and Photoperiod, Many quality authors have written that bass spawn in the temp hits 68 degrees. This may well be a true fact but what is the bigger picture. Photoperiod combined with Water temp, Bottom content, etc etc etc all have to be “close” to favorable for them to spawn. Will some bass spawn in 60 degree water? –Sure- Last spring on pool 9 they spawned in 55 degree water right beside smallies. Science would then suggest that these fish may have adaptations to help the spawn, This would seem logical according to Darwin but then Cuvier would offer a complete difference of opinion.

As for being shallow, You will also notice a movement of crawfish into the mud but that’s a different topic entirely….

jc

JC,
I think the simplest answer to these complex questions is that all of the animals that we are talking about, i.e., shad, bass, crawfish, etc. are simply reacting to their environment. I think the shad are moving into backwater areas at this time of the year for food sources and the bass are too. The water temperatures in the backwaters is also more in the comfort range of these species as opposed to when it was in the mid to upper 80s a month ago. In most if not all animals species photoperiod triggers or provides natural ques for animals that through evolution has programmed them to shift gears so to speak in response to these and other factors. I also think that otyher environmental factors such as rising and higher water levels have an effect on the response of these animals in a more acute (short-lived) fashion whereas photoperiod has a more general or chronic (longer-term) impact.

You are bringing up some interesting points and questions and I look forward to the continued discussion.

I wish it were a few weeks from now, I would gladly share a boat with you in order for you to whiteness this behavior as it only lasts for about a week. I do know that the shad push shallow generally in the fall but I am not sure that we are referencing the exact trigger I am talking about. The general move towards backwater in relationship to the wintering period are one very large migration / movement, however there is another one that is short lived that happens just prior to when the fish “put on the fall feed bag” where I have observed spawning like behavior. Its hard to articulate the circumstances as I have only been studying it for a brief time and references to this are sketchy at best.

In hatcheries where they manipulate the fish by light length and water temp they are capable of getting fish to spawn multiple times per year. Used mostly in stocking programs but I am wondering if, when environmental changes hit a specific range they fish react in similar manors despite the actual time if year.
IE, If they photo period is right , the water temp is 60ish and a warm front trends the water to warm, will this move fish into position? We have established that they do in deed have substantial eggs and are probably capable (or close) to being able to spawn. So for instance if we had a November where the water kept warming and for some reason the earth stopped its pivot on its axis would these fish finish what “I” think is a false spawning run? – I know close minded people are thinking I am off my rocker but then again I will gladly compete against them.- grin-. While I claim no enlightenment I am very careful as to observe my surroundings.

Jc

I would think that the general trend of the shortening days would keep a fall spawn from occuring. Nature usually has mechanisms to stop catastrohies (like launching 3,000,000 fry into a 40 degree world). Since the earth is not likely (I hope) to stop tilting on its axis, I will leave that hypothesis alone.

I have no doubt you have witnessed what you described. I just can’t come up with a theory as to why. I have read bass often return to the same spawning and wintering grounds year after year. Perhaps they are just working ahead and getting the beds ready for spring. I know, that is REAL REAL REAL thin!!! BUt it is all I can come up with right now.

One other thing, if this behavior exists up here, shouldn’t it be MUCH more prevalent in the South, where the fall and winter water temps remain much warmer, and the photoperiod changes are less?

JC,
I understand, or at least I think I understand your questions and I believe that the shallow migration that is going on now is a separate and different one than the winter migration. I think you feel the same about these general movements. I think the current migration is either a “false” winter migration or more likely a reactionary migration of following shad or other food species into whatever water they are going to.

I am curious as to the observed behavior that you are referring to with bass in a nesting mode. Do you think there could be any other explanations for this spawning behavior? I know these questions and answers may be outside the lines of traditional thinking but your hypothesis about a possible fall pre-spawn movement and bed fanning may be a phenomenon that others including myself have not witenssed but may actually occur in certain areas. In science a closed mind is a dead mind in my opinion. We have to consider the “what if” scenario in order to objectively look for the answers to these questions or find the data to discount or support them.

With respect to your reference about being off your rocker, I do not know you well enough to make such a claim!!

I need to respond to this but I have had way to many beers tonight to make any logical interpretations. I am off to fish the MN state tourney in the am so I might be out all week but rest asure I will continue this when I return.
Jc

To all have a great holiday and I’ll see ya on the water.

I was on a clear water lake in NW wisconsin today chasing smallmouth, and observed about a dozen VERY CLEAN bass beds (definitely not from this spring) 4 of which had a smallmouth sitting right on them, and didn’t move at all when I got close to them with the boat. I have never observed it before, and really wasn’t sure if I believed the story here… but in that clear water everything was unmistakable – there is no other description or explanation than “spawning like behavior”.

I was recently talking with a fishing buddy of mine about this issue of “false” spawning behavior in the fall and was reminded about seeing the same type of bed making behavior a few years back in the fall with water tempertures around 60. I guess that the mind is the first thing to go!! Anyway after discussing the situation it occurred to me that fish and all animals basically just react to their environment and if temperature is a major cue for them and it reaches the spawning range twice each year it makes sense that they could be “fooled” into thinking that it is spawning time during the fall when the water temps drop into their preferred range on its way down to freezing conditions.

When discussions like this one occur on a topical thread we all benefit from other points of view and observations. It also gets us all to think outside of our “box” so to speak.

To say this is to say that photo period has less of an impact on spawning than water temp when in fact photoperiod governs transitional movement more so than water temp…. rotflmao, I am sorry I didn’t want to go down this road again but I just can’t help myself.
Actually you are correct in either condition. Favorable conditions typically intersect twice each year. Now, how about the forage that makes similar runs into the shallows drawing large numbers along with them. Similar instinctual programming?

JC,
I believe your post regarding photoperiod being another important environmental cue is right on the mark. As far as the forage migration goes I have not done any research into this subject but I will see if I run across anything while doing other aquatic research.