Bad Kitty

  • CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2299725

    Would this be the same reckoning that some have been predicting for the boat market for about the past 10 years? When can I expect new boat prices to go down and by how much?

    When I say reckoning I am certainly not saying prices will drop but sales certainly will and have already. That market burst after that huge increase during the covid years. Now people are dumping used units like crazy. Some models are still selling like hotcakes though, but others are certainly struggling. You never really see a ton of hondas or yamahas sitting there because they are smart with their manufacturing.

    B-man
    Posts: 6190
    #2305838

    Looks like Arctic Cat is shutting it down for good now cry

    Attachments:
    1. Screenshot_20241219-072317.png

    Eelpoutguy
    Farmington, Outing
    Posts: 10779
    #2305840

    I just saw that on the Gram.
    Does this mean I’ll be able to a smokin hot deal on a couple SxS’s?

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2305848

    The news while seemingly bleak I dont think it means the end either. There are a lot of options that could come of this and the most likely would be a competitor buying them from Textron. CFMoto is one of the many names that have been floated to have US based manufacturing.

    Jason
    Posts: 840
    #2305868

    I just saw that on the Gram.
    Does this mean I’ll be able to a smokin hot deal on a couple SxS’s?

    If you can still locate a ’24 model the big discounts are going on now. I just upgraded mine in Oct and saved myself around 4K.

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3257
    #2305873

    The news while seemingly bleak I dont think it means the end either. There are a lot of options that could come of this and the most likely would be a competitor buying them from Textron. CFMoto is one of the many names that have been floated to have US based manufacturing.

    this is my thought as well. theres a lot of intangible value in the brand name, their designs and manufacturing network, etc. I’d be pretty surprised if it doesn’t get acquired by someone.

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13707
    #2305874

    Growing up in Racine/Kenosha, I watched Chrysler, Massey, Young, Modine, Case, Johnson, and many more restructure, close down, and relocate. The economic impact it has on a community is unreal when those “good” paying jobs are gone. SE WI was a power house in manufacturing and thousands of good paying jobs fed the community, region, and state. Now, its primary job source is entry level Amazon distribution center and delivery….well there’s more, but nothing like the living that was earned prior.
    Then add the political fall-out of Foxconn when the democrats booted Walker out of office and began the rants of how bad Foxconn deal was and how we needed to get out of it. Foxconn changed plans immediately and made it a cat 6 factory in lieu of the 10.5 super high end screen production plant. Wasn’t a huge Walker fan, but thank the Lord all the tax incentives was benchmarked. Evers screwed the pooch on that deal. Nealy everyone from the original deal is gone from office and it will now go nowhere.

    These impacts affect the community as a whole, not just the employee/family

    mxskeeter
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts: 4097
    #2305914

    Good post Randy and so true.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2305924

    These impacts affect the community as a whole, not just the employee/family

    This will hurt Thief River Falls pretty bad. DigiKey is a much larger employer than AC is, but this will not be good if things dont turn around.
    Many people dont remember this, but Textron actually owned Polaris many years ago. Guess what, they ran them into the ground and then sold them off. Different times now, but actually not all that much.
    When they owned them it was actually also a period of time when we had very little snow for several winters much like recently. The pricing of the machines was not nearly as out of line as they are now however.

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11950
    #2305927

    The pricing of the machines was not nearly as out of line as they are now however.

    This gets brought up a lot. I’d be interested to know, what do you think an American made trail snowmobile in the 600 class should cost?

    This comes up all the time at rest stops on the trail, bars etc. A guy complains about the cost, but he’s riding an 850 turbo with adjustable on the fly air suspension, heated grips/seat/running boards, a 10 inch Garmin mapping screen with satellite communications, and remote start.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2305928

    The last new sled I ordered had an MSRP of 7999 and it was an 800 limited edition. I did not pay MSRP. Now a 600 lists for like 15k. That’s around a 100% jump in not that long. The EPA has a lot to do with this because of the requirements which drives up costs whether it’s clean 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
    Back in the 90s I was trading every year for a new one and paying $500 to boot. Those days long gone.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8591
    #2305933

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>CaptainMusky wrote:</div>
    The pricing of the machines was not nearly as out of line as they are now however.

    This gets brought up a lot. I’d be interested to know, what do you think an American made trail snowmobile in the 600 class should cost?

    This comes up all the time at rest stops on the trail, bars etc. A guy complains about the cost, but he’s riding an 850 turbo with adjustable on the fly air suspension, heated grips/seat/running boards, a 10 inch Garmin mapping screen with satellite communications, and remote start.

    I don’t really debate or complain about the “out of line” pricing or whatever some call it. If that’s what it costs to produce them and feed all the mouths along the way in production, so be it. The market is now deciding what price points it will or won’t support. I’d hate to be sitting on sled inventory at today’s prices though, but again that’s me.

    The prices have simply climbed beyond what I want to spend on a machine I maybe put a few hundred miles on in a year if I am lucky…and then the next 2 I might not move it. I could win the lottery and buying back into snowmobiles would be near the absolute bottom of my to-do list. I’ll go out West and rent once a year and call it good at that. There’s too many other cool toys and tools out there today that I can use 12 months out of the year to spend on new sleds.

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13707
    #2305934

    The last new sled I ordered had an MSRP of 7999 and it was an 800 limited edition. I did not pay MSRP. Now a 600 lists for like 15k. That’s around a 100% jump in not that long. The EPA has a lot to do with this because of the requirements which drives up costs whether it’s clean 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
    Back in the 90s I was trading every year for a new one and paying $500 to boot. Those days long gone.

    What was your gross income at the time of each of those milestones? (rhetorical question) I assume it was not the same rate as inflation on these machines.

    Comparing it to boat inflation. My 16K 91 dynatrack would be over 100K today. If my income level increased at the same rate I would be making roughly $150K more a year

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2305937

    Very valid question Randy. My typical annual raise was 3% with a promotion or two that bumped it more but I didn’t double my salary to match the double in cost of a machine you use 3 months.

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3257
    #2305942

    This gets brought up a lot. I’d be interested to know, what do you think an American made trail snowmobile in the 600 class should cost?

    This comes up all the time at rest stops on the trail, bars etc. A guy complains about the cost, but he’s riding an 850 turbo with adjustable on the fly air suspension, heated grips/seat/running boards, a 10 inch Garmin mapping screen with satellite communications, and remote start.

    I agree with everything bucky said. I can’t tell you what the exact number would be for me, but I can tell you without a doubt that it takes 0.1 seconds of me looking at current MSRP sticker prices to know the juice isn’t worth the squeeze for me. 10 years ago, that was not the case.

    Similar to what bucky said, shorter winters/riding season makes it an even easier decision.

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13707
    #2305944

    Very valid question Randy. My typical annual raise was 3% with a promotion or two that bumped it more but I didn’t double my salary to match the double in cost of a machine you use 3 months.

    Precisely. I feel for my daughters and everyone in that generation now. Fortunately my girls understand that its taken me decades to acquire what I have and they are not part of that NOW generation mentality. But looking at inflation on housing, autos, clothing, food, toys…. we had so much more purchasing power 30 years ago. Just looking back at a 40K income and could cover house, truck, car, and raising a family with modest means. Today, $100K combine income is nearly nothing if you’re just starting adulthood

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 12317
    #2305947

    I just looked to see how many employees they had here in St. Cloud. I think it currently was at only 40-50. At its peak I think they were less than 100. Not like when finger Hut closed down. They had near 4500 employee’s at their peak. I believe that Electrolux employed around 1700 near its peak. That’s a ton of loss jobs in this area over the years.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2305963

    Yeah St Cloud never really had that many employees, but 1 losing their job still sucks. This plant is state of the art and almost fully automated. They had folks once they were opened from ALL of the big Japanese companies reviewing what they had in place including Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha and I am sure others. At the time AC still had a working relationship with Suzuki and was just starting one with Yamaha. I dont believe any of the suzuki engines were built here 2 stroke or 4 stroke. This plant builds any AC developed advanced 2 stroke or 4 stroke (not many mainly just ATVs). The 650 H1, 550 H1, new 600 (all 4 strokes in ATVs), then the 600 dfi, 800 dfi and now 858 dfi 2 strokes (snowmobiles). There might be others but those I am pretty confident are all produced here.

    David Anderson
    Dayton, MN
    Posts: 524
    #2305967

    The concerning part for me with AC at least is that they have gone to a business model of “only building what is sold”, so where is this excess inventory coming from?

    Unless some knucklehead WAY over estimated projections for sales and planned components accordingly only to fall way short on actual sales and they had to produce what they had materials for. I can buy that, but that is not the bill of goods they have been telling shareholders and customers for the last 5 or so years. Hopefully the person responsible was let go and the manufacturing staff who dutifully do their jobs are spared.

    The problem with that industry, or any industry associated in power sports is that the main customer is the dealers, not the end user. Polaris had snow checks, an incentive to give end users a break for ordering early and giving some indication of future production needs, and to help dealers sell sleds. Today as a dealer you go to the spring dealer shows and are required to order next fall’s stock ahead of time. The knuckleheads you refer to are in fact the dealers that understand, no stock, no sale. All of a sudden there is a slow down and they are already 8 months ahead of the game in inventory. Dealers are complaining about excess inventory and lack of customers coming in to do deals, they are reaching to the manufacturers for help. It’s all around us, from automotive dealerships, boats, lawn equipment, farm equipment. You might be able to find some good deals out there but it’s almost impossible to go backwards on base prices once established. I would agree, almost anything that has an engine has been price beyond what the public can afford these days. And of course as competition drops out there is less incentive to hold the line on price. Oh well.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 12317
    #2305975

    All I know is that less competition has never been a good thing consumers. To me the whole snowmobile thing has always blown my mind. The cost of them seem crazy to me for the amount of use a person gets out of them. Some years more than others, but never all that much. I know lots of riders who seem to always need to be upgrading to newer models every few years. They also seem to take a rather big beating every time they upgrade. I guess unless its your passion its hard to understand.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 12317
    #2305976

    Yeah St Cloud never really had that many employees, but 1 losing their job still sucks

    Yes it does and around this time of the year even more.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2305977

    Polaris is not Arctic Cat. It was well communicated that if you did NOT order a snow check sled from AC you were NOT getting one and that has been the case the last many years. Now was there a chance someone put their name on a sled and didnt get it and lost their deposit? Sure, but that is not at all what AC was selling as bill of goods to the consumer. You dont order one in the Spring, you dont get one. There wasnt supposed to be any inventory because that was their way of clearing out old inventory that had been sitting.
    Polaris and Doo operate far differently. Cat used to be that way too, but we were all told this changed 5 plus years ago or so.

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 12134
    #2306008

    All I know is that less competition has never been a good thing consumers. To me the whole snowmobile thing has always blown my mind. The cost of them seem crazy to me for the amount of use a person gets out of them. Some years more than others, but never all that much. I know lots of riders who seem to always need to be upgrading to newer models every few years. They also seem to take a rather big beating every time they upgrade. I guess unless its your passion its hard to understand.

    Not much different than a wheel house. Better chance of ripping around in a sled after work and weekends then hauling a big shack a few times a year.

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3257
    #2306012

    At least a wheel house can double as a camper year round. I don’t think you can get very far riding a sled in July.

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 12134
    #2306013

    At least a wheel house can double as a camper year round. I don’t think you can get very far riding a sled in July.

    Sure. Some have more time in winter to ride than summer to camp. Same same.
    Bottom line the long term forecast for all rec items is probably not much growth. Less people getting into it and less people overall in that age category.

    Eelpoutguy
    Farmington, Outing
    Posts: 10779
    #2306031

    Arctic Cat owner stopping all production, could sell the Minnesota snowmobile and ATV maker
    Textron Inc. had already announced it was halting factory work in Thief River Falls and cutting the workforce; now, St. Cloud operations also will be affected as powersports industry continues to hit bumps.

    Arctic Cat’s St. Cloud plant. The company recently announced plans to produce snowmobile engines there making them more vertically-integrated. ORG XMIT: MIN2012091320223569 ORG XMIT: MIN1304051542286038
    Owner Textron is halting production at its St. Cloud engine plant. (Evan Ramstad — DML – DML – DML – Star Tribune Star Tribune Star Tribune/The Minnesota Star Tribune)

    The owner of Arctic Cat says it is suspending production at plants in Thief River Falls, Minn., and St. Cloud as the company seeks alternatives for its powersports operations.

    Rhode Island-based Textron Inc., an industrial conglomerate that owns aviation and defense companies, bought Arctic Cat in January 2017 for $247 million. Arctic Cat became part of Textron’s Industrial segment, which includes other Textron Specialized Vehicles like E-Z-Go golf carts, Cushman utility vehicles and Jacobsen mowers.

    In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Wednesday Textron said it was seeking strategic alternatives for Arctic Cat, which is based in Thief River Falls and makes snowmobiles, ATVs and other outdoor vehicles.

    “The consumer end market demand for powersports products continues to remain soft,” the company wrote.

    The powersports industry, which includes personal watercraft, snowmobiles and all-terrain and utility vehicles, has struggled lately as consumers delay big purchases that often require financing. Medina-based Polaris Inc., the largest powersports manufacturer, said during its third quarter earnings in October that it was limiting production to protect inventory levels at its dealers.

    In November, Textron announced it had laid off 65 Arctic Cat employees in Thief River Falls and planned to suspend snowmobile production in the first half of 2025. Now “production will be indefinitely suspended for all product lines sometime in the first half of 2025,” a Textron spokesperson said in an email.

    Some workers will return at the start of the new year to complete limited production runs tied to existing customer orders, so an exact date when all production will cease has not been determined.

    Textron said employees who work through their completion dates will be offered severance.

    Arctic Cat owner stopping all production, could sell the Minnesota snowmobile and ATV maker

    The company will take a charge of $30 million to $40 million to write down the production-related powersports inventory, according to the SEC filing.

    Arctic Cat employs about 530 workers at its Thief River Falls plant and about 30 at its St. Cloud engine manufacturing facility.

    In a filing with the SEC on Thursday, Polaris said it has amended some of its credit agreements, including increasing the amount of its revolving line of credit and extending some maturity dates.

    After Yamaha announced in June 2023 that it was leaving the snowmobile business, three main producers remained in the powersports category: Polaris, Arctic Cat and Canada-based BRP Inc., which makes Ski-Doo and Lynx snowmobiles.

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 21166
    #2306033

    They offer the most undesirable wheelers and sxs on the market. So no surprise those weren’t moving. Sucks to see them going under but it’s not that big of a surprise

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23754
    #2306034

    They offer the most undesirable wheelers and sxs on the market. So no surprise those weren’t moving. Sucks to see them going under but it’s not that big of a surprise

    Ever since Textron took over things went down the drain. Couple that and the divorce with Robbie Gordon, which many details have never come to light with how that ended the Wildcat XX was left crippled. Its a fantastic machine, but they never launched a turbo OR 4 door model and both were Production ready so just 1 model offering. Then they cut the Havoc which was a great machine as well and I believe they only have 1 workhorse SxS now. ATVs again only a few models from where they used to be. Certainly doesnt breed excitement for your brand when there is no selection.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 12317
    #2306081

    Not much different than a wheel house. Better chance of ripping around in a sled after work and weekends then hauling a big shack a few times a year.

    I agree. Never fully understood the whole wheel house thing either. Then again I really don’t care how people spend their money. If they can afford either and it brings them pleasure, I say go for it.

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11950
    #2306083

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ripjiggen wrote:</div>
    Not much different than a wheel house. Better chance of ripping around in a sled after work and weekends then hauling a big shack a few times a year.

    I agree. Never fully understood the whole wheel house thing either. Then again I really don’t care how people spend their money. If they can afford either and it brings them pleasure, I say go for it.

    To me it’s now part of a Complaining America culture. We complain about the cost of EVERYTHING. Except what we spend our money on! Everything we spend on is justifiable because we have to have it.
    Everything else is crazy high.

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