Wolves in the Backyard

  • BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 12021
    #2308166

    If its such ideal habitat, why were there no whitetail in our region 120 years ago until logging significantly changed the habitat?

    I appreciate you quoting me about it being logged regularly, then asking about it pre-logging. My hypothesis would be that pre-logging deer wouldn’t want to compete with Moose, Elk and Caribou for forage, and were easier prey for the wolves than the other ungulates. So living in central and southern MN where there was less competition for food and fewer predators makes sense.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 12021
    #2308167

    Here’s the Boone and Crockett stats I referenced earlier as well, from northern MN.

    Attachments:
    1. IMG_9098-scaled.jpeg

    2. IMG_9099-scaled.jpeg

    weedis
    Sauk Rapids, MN
    Posts: 1464
    #2308201

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Don Meier wrote:</div>
    You can’t kill them all , look at the coyote population !

    How many people do you know that still hunt coyotes? I dont know anyone personally who actively targets them. THey will take the opportunity to shoot one if the chance comes up however.

    Believe it or not, there is studies that show hunting coyotes has led to an increase in population. They have adapted so well that they will just breed more if they loose members of the pack. It was on a meateater episode, I will try and dig it up.

    basseyes
    Posts: 2593
    #2308204

    My great uncle shot a deer by Wells mn way back when they were less common than a Canada goose. The transition zone was, and still is the best deer area of the state. Look at the stats for the transition zones and the harvest numbers are incredible. The top 20 units blow the doors off the rest of the state.

    The logging boom and bust cycle really kicked deer numbers up to an unsustainable level. Now with the logging practices, the higher deer numbers in the north and especially the northeast are probably never achievable again without man stepping in and doing great things to make the habitat better suitable for whitetails.

    St Louis county is roughly 1,000,000 acres or 6,860 square miles. And shares a 150 mile border with Canada. Has some remote, rugged wilderness areas and enough security cover and limited hunting pressure to allow bucks to reach maturity. Even with less than ideal food sources or other habitat than endless miles of security cover.

    Buffalo County is 448,364 acres or 710 square miles. The number of bucks shot per mile aren’t even in the same galaxy as st louis county.

    Wolves kill deer and always have. After digging into the stats on it, the wsi, along with liberal seasons and bag limits affected deer numbers way more than wolves. Have had a legally harvest wolf sitting dead on a table at our deer camp in the first wolf season. Had 2 others trapped off our nw corner. It didn’t magically bring the deer numbers back. When the wolves ate themselves out of house and home and starved out, the deer numbers didn’t bounce back like normal. To get deer back there needs to be a balanced approach to managing habitat, along with predator control and less liberal seasons and bag limits. But all that takes time, sacrifice, money and support from hunters, the legislative body and the dnr. Not just delisting wolves, which I am 110% in favor of. But doubt will happen anytime soon.

    Like so many on here have said over and over again, it’s about balance. My grandmother’s family was from nw’er mn and they hated wolves. I personally use to really like them from a level of having zero interaction with them. After owning a deer camp for over 2 decades now in wolf country, I’m not as enthusiastic about them. Still like them, but highly dislike how the only way to describe how they are managed in Minnesota currently is, they are not managed at all. There’s nothing scientific with the hands off approach because they are way past the agreed to numbers for delisting. It’s a social tolerance of them being harvested at all. That’s the biggest thing that bothers me personally within this whole discussion, it has zero to do with wolf population size or if they could withstand hunting pressure. It is all about societies emotions and feelings towards one animal that is highly over glamorized and is an unbelievable cash cow for non-profit organizations. That isn’t going to change. There are 50, yes fifty, 501c3 non profit organizations that sue the feds anytime the wolf is close to being delisted. They have deep pockets, and incredible people able to twist the legal and judicial process into knots that take decades to be undone. I hold out little hope there will be any wolf regulations that involve harvest even if they are delisted as long as we have a governor from the dfl party who puts their handpicked people in the appointed roles within the dnr leadership roles. Those leaders within the state government and dnr will never be pro-wolf hunting until there’s a republican in office. And the likelihood of a non dfl governor in this state anytime soon seems extremely unlikely.

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3215
    #2308206

    In northern Minnesota, where the forest habitat was much different than it is today, deer were absent or rare

    Reef’s quote is perfectly aligning with what I’m saying.

    I appreciate you quoting me about it being logged regularly, then asking about it pre-logging. My hypothesis would be that pre-logging deer wouldn’t want to compete with Moose, Elk and Caribou for forage, and were easier prey for the wolves than the other ungulates. So living in central and southern MN where there was less competition for food and fewer predators makes sense.

    I appreciate you acknowledging there wasn’t great habitat pre-logging. No further questions your honor.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 12021
    #2308207

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BigWerm wrote:</div>
    I appreciate you quoting me about it being logged regularly, then asking about it pre-logging. My hypothesis would be that pre-logging deer wouldn’t want to compete with Moose, Elk and Caribou for forage, and were easier prey for the wolves than the other ungulates. So living in central and southern MN where there was less competition for food and fewer predators makes sense.

    I appreciate you acknowledging there wasn’t great habitat pre-logging. No further questions your honor.

    If that was your take away, we should be done here. I can’t teach reading comprehension. Great habitat for Moose, Elk and Caribou somehow means it’s not great habitat for deer?? Please explain. The logging corresponded with market hunting which decimated the big woods and the big game simultaneously, which was a boon to WTD.

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 18065
    #2308208

    Nice post Basseyes. Level headed and thought out.

    Krh129
    Posts: 165
    #2308229

    Nice post Basseyes. Level headed and thought out.

    Agreed and what it points to more generally is that as the number of people who participate in fishing and especially hunting continues to decline political clout goes with it. I doubt even a change of party will change things, and I find it ironic that as he stated there are a large number of organizations opposed to managing the population while people who hunt and fish seem to almost sport bash organizations that support hunting and fishing.

    crawdaddy
    St. Paul MN
    Posts: 1829
    #2308231

    A lot of the tall grass prairie in MN had elk. Deer were more relegated to woods edges.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8481
    #2308232

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>gim wrote:</div>
    Nice post Basseyes. Level headed and thought out.

    Agreed and what it points to more generally is that as the number of people who participate in fishing and especially hunting continues to decline political clout goes with it. I doubt even a change of party will change things, and I find it ironic that as he stated there are a large number of organizations opposed to managing the population while people who hunt and fish seem to almost sport bash organizations that support hunting and fishing.

    I agree. The political influence of hunters isn’t the same as it once was, nor is it trending in-favor of those who hunt.

    Many people like to compare longitudinal figures for “license sales” as a data point to show that the number of hunters is staying the same in the state. That only tells part of the story. To measure hunter participation and political influence, a more accurate statistic would be to measure number of licenses as a percentage of population.

    For example:

    2023 – 445,815 deer firearm licenses sold
    2022 – 459,021 deer firearm licenses sold
    2021 – 467,413 deer firearm licenses sold

    2000 – 455,644 deer firearm licenses sold

    ^Some people cite this data as hunter participation being the exact same as 2+ decades ago

    The difference is that there were 5.8 million people living in Minnesota in 2024, and there were about 4.9 million people living in Minnesota in 2000. We have almost added another million Minnesota residents in a little over 2 decades, but the number of people deer hunting has stayed the same.

    DeRangedFishinguy
    Up Nort’
    Posts: 303
    #2308242

    My great uncle shot a deer by Wells mn way back when they were less common than a Canada goose. The transition zone was, and still is the best deer area of the state. Look at the stats for the transition zones and the harvest numbers are incredible. The top 20 units blow the doors off the rest of the state.

    The logging boom and bust cycle really kicked deer numbers up to an unsustainable level. Now with the logging practices, the higher deer numbers in the north and especially the northeast are probably never achievable again without man stepping in and doing great things to make the habitat better suitable for whitetails.

    St Louis county is roughly 1,000,000 acres or 6,860 square miles. And shares a 150 mile border with Canada. Has some remote, rugged wilderness areas and enough security cover and limited hunting pressure to allow bucks to reach maturity. Even with less than ideal food sources or other habitat than endless miles of security cover.

    Buffalo County is 448,364 acres or 710 square miles. The number of bucks shot per mile aren’t even in the same galaxy as st louis county.

    Wolves kill deer and always have. After digging into the stats on it, the wsi, along with liberal seasons and bag limits affected deer numbers way more than wolves. Have had a legally harvest wolf sitting dead on a table at our deer camp in the first wolf season. Had 2 others trapped off our nw corner. It didn’t magically bring the deer numbers back. When the wolves ate themselves out of house and home and starved out, the deer numbers didn’t bounce back like normal. To get deer back there needs to be a balanced approach to managing habitat, along with predator control and less liberal seasons and bag limits. But all that takes time, sacrifice, money and support from hunters, the legislative body and the dnr. Not just delisting wolves, which I am 110% in favor of. But doubt will happen anytime soon.

    Like so many on here have said over and over again, it’s about balance. My grandmother’s family was from nw’er mn and they hated wolves. I personally use to really like them from a level of having zero interaction with them. After owning a deer camp for over 2 decades now in wolf country, I’m not as enthusiastic about them. Still like them, but highly dislike how the only way to describe how they are managed in Minnesota currently is, they are not managed at all. There’s nothing scientific with the hands off approach because they are way past the agreed to numbers for delisting. It’s a social tolerance of them being harvested at all. That’s the biggest thing that bothers me personally within this whole discussion, it has zero to do with wolf population size or if they could withstand hunting pressure. It is all about societies emotions and feelings towards one animal that is highly over glamorized and is an unbelievable cash cow for non-profit organizations. That isn’t going to change. There are 50, yes fifty, 501c3 non profit organizations that sue the feds anytime the wolf is close to being delisted. They have deep pockets, and incredible people able to twist the legal and judicial process into knots that take decades to be undone. I hold out little hope there will be any wolf regulations that involve harvest even if they are delisted as long as we have a governor from the dfl party who puts their handpicked people in the appointed roles within the dnr leadership roles. Those leaders within the state government and dnr will never be pro-wolf hunting until there’s a republican in office. And the likelihood of a non dfl governor in this state anytime soon seems extremely unlikely.

    Well said! All the more reason to support S.S.S!

    grubson
    Harris, Somewhere in VNP
    Posts: 1672
    #2308245

    Great post basseyes. One thing though.
    If you are going to compare harvest between st Louis county mn to Buffalo county WI you should also consider the difference in hunting pressure. Id bet there’s far more hunters/ acre in Buffalo County than st. Louis County.

    crawdaddy
    St. Paul MN
    Posts: 1829
    #2308281

    And buffalo county has went downhill for quality with increased pressure due to publicity. At least this is what the locals told me.

    Umy
    South Metro
    Posts: 1970
    #2308306

    My great uncle shot a deer by Wells mn way back when they were less common than a Canada goose. The transition zone was, and still is the best deer area of the state. Look at the stats for the transition zones and the harvest numbers are incredible. The top 20 units blow the doors off the rest of the state.

    The logging boom and bust cycle really kicked deer numbers up to an unsustainable level. Now with the logging practices, the higher deer numbers in the north and especially the northeast are probably never achievable again without man stepping in and doing great things to make the habitat better suitable for whitetails.

    St Louis county is roughly 1,000,000 acres or 6,860 square miles. And shares a 150 mile border with Canada. Has some remote, rugged wilderness areas and enough security cover and limited hunting pressure to allow bucks to reach maturity. Even with less than ideal food sources or other habitat than endless miles of security cover.

    Buffalo County is 448,364 acres or 710 square miles. The number of bucks shot per mile aren’t even in the same galaxy as st louis county.

    Wolves kill deer and always have. After digging into the stats on it, the wsi, along with liberal seasons and bag limits affected deer numbers way more than wolves. Have had a legally harvest wolf sitting dead on a table at our deer camp in the first wolf season. Had 2 others trapped off our nw corner. It didn’t magically bring the deer numbers back. When the wolves ate themselves out of house and home and starved out, the deer numbers didn’t bounce back like normal. To get deer back there needs to be a balanced approach to managing habitat, along with predator control and less liberal seasons and bag limits. But all that takes time, sacrifice, money and support from hunters, the legislative body and the dnr. Not just delisting wolves, which I am 110% in favor of. But doubt will happen anytime soon.

    Like so many on here have said over and over again, it’s about balance. My grandmother’s family was from nw’er mn and they hated wolves. I personally use to really like them from a level of having zero interaction with them. After owning a deer camp for over 2 decades now in wolf country, I’m not as enthusiastic about them. Still like them, but highly dislike how the only way to describe how they are managed in Minnesota currently is, they are not managed at all. There’s nothing scientific with the hands off approach because they are way past the agreed to numbers for delisting. It’s a social tolerance of them being harvested at all. That’s the biggest thing that bothers me personally within this whole discussion, it has zero to do with wolf population size or if they could withstand hunting pressure. It is all about societies emotions and feelings towards one animal that is highly over glamorized and is an unbelievable cash cow for non-profit organizations. That isn’t going to change. There are 50, yes fifty, 501c3 non profit organizations that sue the feds anytime the wolf is close to being delisted. They have deep pockets, and incredible people able to twist the legal and judicial process into knots that take decades to be undone. I hold out little hope there will be any wolf regulations that involve harvest even if they are delisted as long as we have a governor from the dfl party who puts their handpicked people in the appointed roles within the dnr leadership roles. Those leaders within the state government and dnr will never be pro-wolf hunting until there’s a republican in office. And the likelihood of a non dfl governor in this state anytime soon seems extremely unlikely.

    HOPEFULLY his attachment to a trainwreck and his “stellar” performance since have wizened up this state……… whistling

    Bearcat89
    North branch, mn
    Posts: 21087
    #2308317

    HOPEFULLY his attachment to a trainwreck and his “stellar” performance since have wizened up this state……… whistling
    [/quote]

    Who wallz ? This state voted for him. So I’d doubt it.

    Umy
    South Metro
    Posts: 1970
    #2308499

    HOPEFULLY his attachment to a trainwreck and his “stellar” performance since have wizened up this state……… whistling

    Who wallz ? This state voted for him. So I’d doubt it.
    [/quote]

    I was hoping the national ‘trend’ may impact the state trend.

    Hope springs eternal.
    Alexander Pope’s poem “An Essay on Man” from the 18th century. The full line reads, “Hope springs eternal in the human breast: Man never is, but always to be blest.”

    We can only hope (and vote wave )

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23581
    #2308723

    I saw that last week crawdaddy how disgusting.

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 18065
    #2308757

    I saw that last week crawdaddy how disgusting.

    Shameful and rotten. But at the same time, you gotta keep track of your dogs. Even if they are “escape artists.”

    glenn57
    cold spring mn
    Posts: 12242
    #2308778

    doah tongue really Gim……ya never made a mistake or did nuttin wrong all your life???? whistling doah

    think its downright BS someone shooting someone elses dog ……..REGARDLESS….unless it was chasing deer. and even then i dont think i could it is someone elses fsmily member…i know i’d be pizzed as hello!!!!

    my brother lost a good dog because his friggin neighbor poisoned it!!! he paid dearly for that!!!

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 18065
    #2308779

    think its downright BS someone shooting someone elses dog

    I agree, I would never shoot a dog either. Not even if it was in the act of chasing deer, which is clearly legal according to the game laws.

    That doesn’t discount the fact that if you own a pet, keep track of it. Most of this can be prevented by responsible pet owners.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23581
    #2308788

    Gim has a point. It doesn’t excuse what the end result is but how many people bring their dogs out to the lake and let them roam free and they don’t come back? Seems to happen nearly every weekend once the wheelhouses can get out.

    glenn57
    cold spring mn
    Posts: 12242
    #2308799

    doah kinda missing my point…..but i defer……carry onas Gim would say!!! wave

    Beast
    Posts: 1190
    #2308820

    we use to raise show horses, we had a vet spending 5 hrs, to stich a mare up that someone’s unattended pet put through a fence, we couldn’t show that mare again, and I’m sure Fido just wanted to play with the horse! I chewed many a butt of people waking their dog off leash after that, and they all got the same warning, your dog causes anymore damage you can expect the bill or a dead dog.

    Full draw
    Posts: 1256
    #2308827

    Believe it or not, there is studies that show hunting coyotes has led to an increase in population. They have adapted so well that they will just breed more if they loose members of the pack. It was on a meateater episode, I will try and dig it up.
    [/quote]

    Coyotes don’t breed more. They only have one breeding season a year and in doing so they only have one litter a year. Coyotes can however change how many pups they will have in their litter. The factors that change it are competition among other coyotes, food availability, habitat etc.
    They are not a pack K9. They are a solitary animal. Unlike wolves every coyote will breed not just the alphas. Lots of times when calling in coyotes during breeding season you can call in a female and there will be up to 3 males with her.
    The largest coyote litter recorded is 22 pups.
    You have resident coyotes and transitory coyotes. So if resident coyotes get killed off transitory coyotes will move in if there is preferred habitat where the residents have been killed off.

    On a side note. Coyotes are an opportunists eater. Some weird things I have seen them eat are calf manure, ethanol cake, grasshoppers and after calling yesterday I discovered they eat corn as well. I found some coyote scat that had corn on it.

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3215
    #2308833

    think its downright BS someone shooting someone elses dog ……..REGARDLESS….unless it was chasing deer. and even then i dont think i could it is someone elses fsmily member…i know i’d be pizzed as hello!!!!

    Trying to make sure I’m following… So a wolf chasing a deer deserves to be shot but a dog (with an irresponsible owner) chasing the same deer doesn’t deserve the same fate?

    Got it.

    If you care as much about the deer population as some in this thread have stated they do, not sure I can see the difference. And this is coming from a dog lover. Not saying I’d shoot the dog… saying I wouldn’t shoot the wolf.

    B-man
    Posts: 6057
    #2308834

    Just got home from a 6 day Ontario lake trout buddy trip.

    500 miles of driving through wolf country and we didn’t see a single one.

    On our way home Mom and the kids called freaking out saying there was just one in the yard with a deer leg hanging out of it’s fricken mouth.

    Ben was frying bacon for breakfast and movement caught his eye out the window. Hank and Mom ran over and got to see it too. They said it was HUGE and zero question it was a wolf.

    The Boys were outside right before breakfast taking care of the chickens, not 30 yards from where it came by shortly after.

    No bullshit, no embellishments. It trotted out of sight before they could get a picture.

    It’s getting even more apparent they’re not the least bit afraid of houses and human activity.

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