Another Unpopular Thread (Politics)

  • Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #2099826

    Unfortunately, this one does have a bit of politics involve.

    Since the pandemic’s onset, the words “follow the science” have been spoken so many times by so many people on so many sides of so many issues, the directive has all but lost its meaning. On the mask/no mask issue alone, follow the science means one thing one day and another the next.

    Yet when it comes to how many walleyes a Minnesotan should be allowed in his or her possession, the science, as it were, seems quite clear.

    The present threshold of six is on solid footing because on the rare occasion an angler actually catches and keeps that many walleyes from a given lake or river, walleyes remaining in that water won’t suffer for the loss.

    Why?

    One reason is that very few anglers actually catch six walleyes. In a 1996 study on Lake Winnibigoshish, for instance, 14,000 anglers were surveyed and only about 140 claimed to have caught limits of six walleyes.

    Secondly, the daily limit of fish caught in Minnesota is also the possession limit of fish. Meaning if you were fortunate enough to catch six walleyes in a day, you could not possess another six until at least the next day, and then only if the original six were eaten, given away or otherwise legally disposed of.

    This restriction is designed to dissuade anglers from taking multiple six-walleye limits when a lake experiences a “hot bite,” which happens occasionally.

    Consider also that the state’s 10 largest walleye lakes, which produce about 40% of walleyes caught by Minnesota anglers each year, already are almost exclusively governed by four-walleye limits.

    These include Cass, Kabetogama, Lake of the Woods, Leech, Mille Lacs, Pepin, Rainy, Upper Red, Vermilion and Winnibigoshish. On each of these, with the exception of “Winnie,” where the limit remains six, the limit is already four, as it is on approximately 100 other smaller Minnesota lakes.

    So, if the state’s six-walleye limit isn’t hurting anything, why are some legislators, including Sen. Carrie Ruud, R-Breezy Point, and the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) itself, in favor again this legislative session of cutting the limit from six to four walleyes?

    Good question.

    In fact, the limit likely would have to be reduced to three or possibly even two — which no one is in favor of — to have a measurable, positive impact on walleye populations.

    DNR fisheries chief Brad Parsons acknowledges the lack of scientific justification for a change, but says the proposal reflects a growing feeling among many anglers that four walleyes is a sufficient limit.

    Thus, rather than a science-based regulation adjustment, Parsons and other supporters of the change say the idea is socially based.

    Put another way, the lower limit is what the angling public, or an assumed portion thereof, feels good about.

    Yet regulation changes of this kind represent a slippery slope most fish and wildlife managers dare not step foot on.

    Fishing, hunting and trapping seasons, as well as bag limits, and participation times, generally are established by scientific means so that only a game or furbearer population’s surplus, or a portion thereof, is harvested, leaving its brood stock to replicate year after year.

    In some instances, social considerations enter into and even dominate this matrix.

    Wolves are one example. Within limits, they could be hunted and/or trapped in Minnesota without harming their population. Out west, grizzlies could also be hunted within limits without harming their population.

    Yet social considerations (so far) prevent hunting of these species.

    “Another reason to go to four walleyes,” Parsons said, “is to be proactive. We know our fisheries are under increasing pressure, and that angling methods, including increased use of electronics, are improving all the time. So why not do something before problems arise?”

    In 2005, a group called the Minnesota Walleye Advisory Committee, founded by ex-DNR fisheries biologist Dick Sternberg, was formed to advocate for intensified walleye management. The group still exists and plays an important advisory role to the DNR.

    Most council members are in favor of going to four walleyes, said committee member Jim Justesen. Reasons are varied, but primary is a belief that the increasingly sophisticated top tier of walleye anglers is pressuring the resource too much too often.

    Justesen is among “two or three” committee members who oppose a change.

    “There’s no scientific evidence to support it,” he said. “It’s walleye stocking, and our stocking strategies, that can affect our walleye populations, and it’s on those that we should be focusing, not the limit.”

    Council member and fishing guide Tom Neustrom of Grand Rapids disagrees.

    “Look at the electronics used today and the number of anglers on our lakes who know how to fish very well,” he said. “There’s a lot of pressure on the resource, and not just in summer, but winter, too, with the advent of wheel houses. If we don’t do something, it’s just going to go downhill. Do we wait five years or do it now? Let’s do something before it become a problem.”

    Retired DNR Northwest Region fisheries manager Henry Drewes counters that if a walleye-limit change is made it should be done honestly.

    “We (the DNR) generally make regulatory changes that intend to make a difference,” Drewes said. “We identify problems and define objectives we want to achieve with a specific regulatory change. Going from six to four walleyes, except perhaps on 1 percent of Minnesota walleye lakes, isn’t going to change anything. It won’t make a difference. People should know that up front.”

    Retired Star Tribune outdoors columnist and “Minnesota Bound” television host Ron Schara acknowledges the lack of scientific justification for a change. But the proliferation of social media can flood anglers to a lake experiencing a hot bite, he says.

    “I’ve seen lakes where walleyes are biting left and right and the next thing you know there are hordes of boats on those lakes,” he said.

    Maybe, acknowledges Gary Korsgaden of Park Rapids. But if individual lakes need reduced walleye limits, the DNR already has authority to act.

    “Four walleyes is a feel-good thing that has no scientific support,” Korsgaden said. “I’m worried we’re headed to a point where it will be politically incorrect, or socially unacceptable, to keep fish and eat them. And that bothers me.”

    Outdoors columnist and editor Dennis Anderson joined the Star Tribune in 1993 after serving in the same positions at the St. Paul Pioneer Press for 13 years. His column topics vary widely, and include canoeing, fishing, hunting, adventure travel and conservation of the environment.

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17844
    #2099830

    Nice read, Brian. Found it very interesting.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16788
    #2099833

    They will do what they want to do, they always have, always will.

    DaveB
    Inver Grove Heights MN
    Posts: 4497
    #2099836

    The limit on Cass is six as well. Unless it was changed for 2022.

    I dont know what the limits should be. I know few anglers actually catch more than a couple. I think a similar argument can be made for two rods as well. It wont help a lot of people, but some will benefit.

    When Vermilion debated going from 6 to 4, the same argument was used about increased pressure, blah blah. Most of those people dont catch a fish all day.

    Maybe it is time to radically rethink limits. Maybe it should be 30/year? How about a limit of 75″, take 6 12″ or 4 17-18″?

    What is a little frustrating is having to know the limits (size, slots, numbers) when each lake can be so different from year to year.

    mojogunter
    Posts: 3313
    #2099841

    I liked when Mille Lacs was catch and release only that way I could limit out every time I went there. roll

    duh queen
    Posts: 547
    #2099843

    If over harvest and reproduction are of real concern, slot limits work better than blanket possession limits. And if the daily limit gets dropped to 4, will the possession limit increase? 4 walleye won’t feed 4 average fish eating adults.
    I wonder how possession limits work with deer? Supposing I haven’t exhausted last year’s harvest. Is it illegal to harvest another deer until it is?
    This is what happens when legislators and bureaucrats write policy that ignores the opinions of those experts schooled in wildlife management, ie, the scientists.
    I wonder what the possession limit is on legislators & bureaucrats? Are they considered invasive species or rough fish?
    Anyway, I guess I’ve reached my limit and had enough of these self appointed “experts”. (And be careful when you call yourself an “expert”. An “ex” is little more than a “has been”, and a “spurt” is little more than a drip under pressure.)

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11832
    #2099844

    Yet when it comes to how many walleyes a Minnesotan should be allowed in his or her possession, the science, as it were, seems quite clear.

    So where in the article is this “science…[that]seems quite clear”?

    What I read is Anderson’s attempt to pass off his opinions and casual observations as science.

    The walleye limit shouldn’t be reduced because most anglers never catch a limit anyway. That’s science? Um, no, Dennis. That’s just dumb.

    The problem with this science-based theory of resource management is that the outdoors is not a laboratory. Also, today’s management decisions are ALWAYS going to be based on some assumptions about what the future holds. Things like winter severity, reproductive success, climate change, etc. None of this can be controlled completely, so scientific management is always a “doing the best we can” proposal because the variables in nature cannot be controlled.

    And yet the DNR gets beat up from every direction for not begin able to control nature.

    duh queen
    Posts: 547
    #2099846

    Or the climate. Yet that seems to be the “hot” topic now adays. When will we start acknowledging that we are not in control and are basically impotent when it comes to climate. ……..just another of those unpopular threads that’s been eating at me.

    Reef W
    Posts: 2830
    #2099849

    4 walleye won’t feed 4 average fish eating adults.

    16 will, maybe take them with you. Or is this the “providing for my family” argument where the fish costs $5k/lb when all is accounted for lol

    John Rasmussen
    Blaine
    Posts: 6462
    #2099850

    Thanks for sharing Brian.

    Maybe it is time to radically rethink limits. Maybe it should be 30/year? How about a limit of 75″, take 6 12″ or 4 17-18″?

    What is a little frustrating is having to know the limits (size, slots, numbers) when each lake can be so different from year to year.

    Agree maybe something like this would be good, but you think its hard to regulate now!
    Yes it sucks having to figure.

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17844
    #2099853

    I’d honestly rather be proactive about reduced bag limits than try to fix the problem after it occurs. We’ve seen this occur with other species of fish in the past. Panfish are probably the biggest species right now under assault because they receive year pressure, very few people release them, and there is no closed season when they spawn. The DNR responded last year by reducing the bag limit of sunfish to 5 daily on over 90 lakes. The pitchforks came out big time. I foresee more of this in the future.

    More people should harvest small pike. They are abundant, easy to catch, and tasty if you clean them properly.

    duh queen
    Posts: 547
    #2099856

    Honest question here: How long did it take to restore Upper Red Lake to one of the premier fisheries in Mn? 6-8 years? Our fisheries are remarkably resilient. We can over-harvest(not by choice) and still resurrect it fairly quickly if we’re paying attention. Because of our increased efficiency & skills as anglers, I can see a day when our electronics are banned, with the exception of basic sonars.

    mnfisherman18
    Posts: 384
    #2099859

    Good topic and interesting read, Brian.

    I don’t see a ton of “science” in favor of keeping the bag limit at 6, basically just a survey from 1996? Many of the arguments for lowering the limit blame the advances in electronics and ice fishing houses for fish population declines, the old surveys above are not a strong rebuttal to those arguments.

    I do agree that not many anglers are going out and keeping 6 fish limits, but I still absolutely support the reduction of the limit down to 4. With that said, I am even more in favor of a state-wide slot limit of something like keeping 13″-20″ and 1 over 28″. I think slot limits like this would have a much greater positive impact on our fisheries than adjusting the bag limits.

    FishBlood&RiverMud
    Prescott
    Posts: 6687
    #2099864

    Dnr managing resources based on public opinion is NOT recent. Ball already started rolling downhill.

    Pool 4 could double limits. Yet, they cut them.

    Stuff is a joke, I’ve darn near removed myself from giving a hoot about any of it.

    Can’t argue against public opinion with facts anymore. Ripe and gross it is!

    Dnr just planted two Timberwolves near my house recently to reduce cwd deer and they’re doing a good job of raising hell with local ranchers. Was calling yotes in the back yard Saturday and spotted a 70# yote…or was it?! Got word about the wolves a few hours later. Coincidence maybe.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #2099869

    Pool 4 could double limits. Yet, they cut them.

    Totally Agree!

    BUT when the angling public was surveyed, they wanted the limit lowered.
    Why wouldn’t they do what the public wants if the “science supported” it.

    Look at the threads in the Mississippi River forum. Most of the people that spoke up were talking less fish limits and closing down the scour hole. Keep asking for it and it will happen. It doesn’t cost your government anything to ban fishing all the way to the Y.

    All the DNR is doing is “Giving the Lady what she wants”.

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11832
    #2099872

    onest question here: How long did it take to restore Upper Red Lake to one of the premier fisheries in Mn? 6-8 years? Our fisheries are remarkably resilient. We can over-harvest(not by choice) and still resurrect it fairly quickly if we’re paying attention

    Red Lake is not a good example to base anything on. The remote location, control the Tribe has over Red Lake, and the fact that about 70% of it is closed to non-tribal fishing period are factors that make it a bad example of what could reasonably be done in the rest of MN.

    The biggest problem is that every lake in MN is different as far as how long they will take to recover from over-fishing. Most will never recover because of habitat changes and the fact that even historically they had very, very low reproduction rates when it came to species like walleye. The only reason they had great fishing in the past was low fishing pressure and low angler success rates. People and technology have solved those problems.

    Matt Moen
    South Minneapolis
    Posts: 4394
    #2099877

    The bottom line is decisions, whether this or any other, are based on opinions. Facts and data inform decisions, but decisions are based upon a group or individuals interpretation of the data. That interpretation results in an opinion.

    Anyone who says, “just give me the facts” or “just give me the data” is completely discredited in my book. There are hundreds of inputs to decision making, especially when it comes to public policies. The data, science, and facts are just one small input to the decisions that are made.

    So, the “follow the science” argument is weak at best. Completely agree with the opening paragraph but this has been going since long before the pandemic.

    The “science” of limits will never be the only decision making criteria….

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #2099880

    The only thing we know for sure is that a 0 fish limit is literally the only one guaranteed not to harm the fishery.

    How did we arrive at 6 anyway? What if the science said the fishery could sustain 18 fish? Should we change it to 18? We know in the case of Mille Lacs that the difference between 0 and 1 is pretty minimal if anything at all. So then why are we trying to split hairs with 30% reduction of the harvest limit under the guise of “protecting the fishery”.

    Prove to me that a change from 6 to 4 is going to make a meaningful difference. If we can’t, then we need to be honest why they want to change it. If it’s just “I just feel it’ll help” or “how could it not help”, then GTFO.

    This is nothing more than a solution looking for a problem.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #2099882

    The only reason they had great fishing in the past was low fishing pressure and low angler success rates. People and technology have solved those problems.

    Please don’t forget Stocking (of lakes that don’t reproduce walleye)

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #2099883

    Prove to me that a change from 6 to 4 is going to make a meaningful difference. If we can’t, then we need to be honest why they want to change it.

    >>>DNR fisheries chief Brad Parsons acknowledges the lack of scientific justification for a change, but says the proposal reflects a growing feeling among many anglers that four walleyes is a sufficient limit.

    Matt, I think the DNR is being honest.

    FishBlood&RiverMud
    Prescott
    Posts: 6687
    #2099888

    Dnr surveys the wrong bucket… should be the bucket they fill with fish, not the bucket filled with opinion.

    buck-slayer
    Posts: 1499
    #2099892

    Lowering the big limit will keep tourist away. 4 of us used to go to Millacs every year until they adjusted the limits. Don’t do that anymore. Going to LOTW woods and staying in a sleeper is something I look forward to every year do it once and try to come twice. I hate the 6.5hr drive and lowering the limits will make me think twice. If Im spending $500 for a two day fishing trip I like to bring home some fish. Resorts will get the worst of it.

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17844
    #2099894

    4 of us used to go to Millacs every year until they adjusted the limits. Don’t do that anymore.

    I started going to Mille Lacs more in recent years because the smallmouth fishing has become some of the best in the country.

    It probably got that way at the expense of the meat hunting walleye anglers. Oh well. Less people is fine by me.

    Deuces
    Posts: 5268
    #2099899

    The bottom line is decisions, whether this or any other, are based on opinions. Facts and data inform decisions, but decisions are based upon a group or individuals interpretation of the data. That interpretation results in an opinion.

    Anyone who says, “just give me the facts” or “just give me the data” is completely discredited in my book. There are hundreds of inputs to decision making, especially when it comes to public policies. The data, science, and facts are just one small input to the decisions that are made.

    So, the “follow the science” argument is weak at best. Completely agree with the opening paragraph but this has been going since long before the pandemic.

    The “science” of limits will never be the only decision making criteria….

    Completely agree.

    From what I’ve seen of public policy on a handful of projects now I’ve observed closely or been part of is it’s the folks who show up at the table who get the say on the interpretation.

    Most sit back and biatch online, some send emails, very few show up at the table when they need to. And imo, the table is made to be a PIA to make it to.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23377
    #2099900

    I will never understand why a politician has any role in making decisions on hunting/fishing limits, etc.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11899
    #2099907

    The only thing we know for sure is that a 0 fish limit is literally the only one guaranteed not to harm the fishery.

    Not according to the DNR. Mille Lacs has been a 0 fish or nearly 0 fish limit (super tight slot for 1 or 2 fish) since 2014, and according to the scientists in St. Paul Hooking mortality still kills tens of thousands of pounds of fish every year, to the point a lake that used to support 200k+ pounds of fish taken out yearly, can only support a fraction of that now.

    Personally I don’t really care too much one way or the other on a 4 fish limit, and wish they would focus on making the regs more uniform across the state and simpler for all. We don’t need 1000 pages of hunting and fishing regulations.

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11836
    #2099908

    The bottom line is decisions, whether this or any other, are based on opinions. Facts and data inform decisions, but decisions are based upon a group or individuals interpretation of the data. That interpretation results in an opinion.

    Anyone who says, “just give me the facts” or “just give me the data” is completely discredited in my book. There are hundreds of inputs to decision making, especially when it comes to public policies. The data, science, and facts are just one small input to the decisions that are made.

    So, the “follow the science” argument is weak at best. Completely agree with the opening paragraph but this has been going since long before the pandemic.

    The “science” of limits will never be the only decision making criteria….

    I only have one data point to add.
    More ice fishing leads to more shanty’s.
    More shanty’s leads to more prostitution.
    Just sayin.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23377
    #2099920

    I only have one data point to add.
    More <strong class=”ido-tag-strong”>ice fishing leads to more shanty’s.
    More shanty’s leads to more prostitution.
    Just sayin.

    I needed this today. The laugh, not the prostitution part.

    duh queen
    Posts: 547
    #2099925

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dee J Anders wrote:</div>
    4 walleye won’t feed 4 average fish eating adults.

    16 will, maybe take them with you. Or is this the “providing for my family” argument where the fish costs $5k/lb when all is accounted for lol

    Just because I live with them doesn’t mean I want to fish with them. razz

    buck-slayer
    Posts: 1499
    #2099926

    It probably got that way at the expense of the meat hunting walleye anglers. Oh well. Less people is fine by me.
    [/quote]

    Easy for you to say when your income doesn’t depend on tourist dollars.

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