Another shooting

crappie55369 wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>jake47 wrote:</div>
On a side note, I have watched all lot of people I am associated with on social media scream out against guns after the Las Vegas and now Texas shootings. However, I did not see one single mention from any of those same people when the guy in New York rented a truck and proceeded to drive into a crowd, killing and injuring many. This to me is evidence that many (all?) of the people I am associated with on social media are sheep and will only cry when main stream media tells them to.

Are you suggesting that those same people should be screaming against truck rentals? Because that would be the logical correlation to your argument – both the gun and truck being the weapon in these cases. I am guessing you are suggesting that they should have been screaming out against…well what? people from certain countries shouldn’t be here? certain faiths? Not exactly sure what they should have been screaming out against in your eyes but if you are attempting to correlate gun control with people control those are different subjects entirely

Crappie

Screaming may have been the wrong term….my point was that it seems most people (sample size=my social media feed) aren’t outraged by the event (murder), but rather the tool(guns or truck). If people (again in my feed) were so incensed by the violence then they would have been outspoken about the
guy slamming into a crowd of people with a truck as well. Instead it was radio silence (for the third time, in my feed).

If you know me, which you don’t, you would know that I certainly wouldn’t advocate for banning rental vehicles, because that would be more government intervention. My point, as biggill alluded to, is that people (in my feed [4th]) were not outraged by the truck massacre because somebody didn’t tell them to be outraged by it.

jake47 wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>crappie55369 wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>jake47 wrote:</div>
On a side note, I have watched all lot of people I am associated with on social media scream out against guns after the Las Vegas and now Texas shootings. However, I did not see one single mention from any of those same people when the guy in New York rented a truck and proceeded to drive into a crowd, killing and injuring many. This to me is evidence that many (all?) of the people I am associated with on social media are sheep and will only cry when main stream media tells them to.

Are you suggesting that those same people should be screaming against truck rentals? Because that would be the logical correlation to your argument – both the gun and truck being the weapon in these cases. I am guessing you are suggesting that they should have been screaming out against…well what? people from certain countries shouldn’t be here? certain faiths? Not exactly sure what they should have been screaming out against in your eyes but if you are attempting to correlate gun control with people control those are different subjects entirely

Crappie

Screaming may have been the wrong term….my point was that it seems most people (sample size=my social media feed) aren’t outraged by the event (murder), but rather the tool(guns or truck). If people (again in my feed) were so incensed by the violence then they would have been outspoken about the
guy slamming into a crowd of people with a truck as well. Instead it was radio silence (for the third time, in my feed).

If you know me, which you don’t, you would know that I certainly wouldn’t advocate for banning rental vehicles, because that would be more government intervention. My point, as biggill alluded to, is that people (in my feed [4th]) were not outraged by the truck massacre because somebody didn’t tell them to be outraged by it.

Ok. I understand your point now. thank you for the clarification

That was an interesting new York article. But unfortunately, who do you believe? I’ve looked up a number of studies that suggested other criteria.

It would be nice to live with rainbows and unicorns and never think this could happen in my back yard. The harsh reality is that we have a problem with disturbed individuals that will last out with any tool they have. It can and does happen anywhere.

We can’t regulate everything from fertilizer, diesel fuel, rental trucks, firearms, knives, toothpicks, and bare hands. Anything can be used as a weapon. How do we resolve the issue of someone with little notice from acting upon these impulses?

biggill wrote:

Enjoy!

What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings? International Comparisons Suggest an Answer – The New York Times
https://apple.news/AOX9I5Q-nQ8uBJ-6oiHqgQw

Has to be lies. Guns don’t kill people.

The last 5 paragraphs are what I meant when I said we have come to the point where this is acceptable

Randy Wieland wrote:

That was an interesting new York article. But unfortunately, who do you believe? I’ve looked up a number of studies that suggested other criteria.

It would be nice to live with rainbows and unicorns and never think this could happen in my back yard. The harsh reality is that we have a problem with disturbed individuals that will last out with any tool they have. It can and does happen anywhere.

We can’t regulate everything from fertilizer, diesel fuel, rental trucks, firearms, knives, toothpicks, and bare hands. Anything can be used as a weapon. How do we resolve the issue of someone with little notice from acting upon these impulses?

We need to stop acting like making bombs is a simple diy project anybody is willing/able to do. We need to accept that guns allow for the easy indiscriminate killing of people.

We need to stop pretending that vehicle attacks are as common and as deadly as attacks with firearms. There’s been what two vehicle attacks in the United States this year that I can think of that resulted in six deaths? There would need to be 10 to 15 more before they even get to the number of Las Vegas. Plus we already heavily regulated vehicles there’s a database of ownership you need insurance you need to be licensed to operate it and in order to obtain that license you need to show some basic level of competence.

I know it helps us sleep better at night to deny it but we need to stop lying to ourselves. Bill O’Reilly said it this is the cost of freedom. We need to realize and accept that the cost of us having so many guns and such easy access to them is that more people including children are going to be killed by them than if we didn’t have so many guns and if the access wasn’t so easy.

, we are all, myself included signing off on this by being okay with the status quo you could try to deny it or point to some study that contradicts this article. But it’s the truth, it’s painfully obvious, and we need to accept it until maybe one day it’s unacceptable and we decide to actually have an honest conversation about it and try to change it.

One thing the article does not address. What do you do about the millions of guns already out there?a buyback program would get some but hardly enough to make a dent.

big_g wrote:

Stat

I appreciate stats! A couple questions about this one though, maybe you could help me understand some potential discrepancies? I mean this, not starting a flame war, just want whatever ‘statistics’ are presented to be reliable, hopefully that’s not cause for insults or anything inflammatory.

1. Where are the rest of the European Union Countries?
Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain all seem to be missing in action. Is it because it would make US appear higher on the list if they were included? Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare the US to other ‘advanced’ countries?

Also, is it weird to include Finland on the EU calculations even though it’s not a part of the EU? It’s almost like they wanted to include it because it’s one mass shooting had a huge impact on the ‘per million’ calculation.

2. Why is the researcher applying his ‘rules’ of what a mass shooting is to the USA shootings but not European ones? The Velika shooting in Serbia was done completely inside private homes but it was included on the list, meanwhile there are likely dozens(maybe hundreds) of similar US shootings omitted. Switzerland/Italy’s shootings also shouldn’t really be included given his criteria.

I’ve seen sources citing more than 1,500 mass shootings(more than 4 people) in the US since 2012, so only seeing 25 seems like maybe something is missing. I don’t know if it’s possible to get an exact number, but 25 seems WAY too low. Like probably omitting over 1,000 too low. This site shows 21 ‘mass shootings’ in the US in 2017 alone(and we aren’t done yet), and over 169 fatal shootings.
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

How do you react to Dr. Lott’s history/allegations as a researcher?

Disputed survey
In the course of a dispute with Otis Dudley Duncan in 1999–2000,[67][68] Lott claimed to have undertaken a national survey of 2,424 respondents in 1997, the results of which were the source for claims he had made beginning in 1997.[68] However, in 2000 Lott was unable to produce the data, or any records showing that the survey had been undertaken. He said the 1997 hard drive crash that had affected several projects with co-authors had destroyed his survey data set,[69] the original tally sheets had been abandoned with other personal property in his move from Chicago to Yale, and he could not recall the names of any of the students who he said had worked on it. Critics alleged that the survey had never taken place,[70] but Lott defends the survey’s existence and accuracy, quoting on his website colleagues who lost data in the hard drive crash.[71]

Mary Rosh persona
In response to the dispute surrounding the missing survey, Lott created and used “Mary Rosh” as a sock puppet to defend his own works on Usenet and elsewhere. After investigative work by blogger Julian Sanchez, Lott admitted to use of the Mary Rosh persona.[70] Sanchez also pointed out that Lott, posing as Rosh, not only praised his own academic writing, but also called himself “the best professor I ever had”.

Many commentators and academics accused Lott of violating academic integrity, noting that he praised himself while posing as one of his former students,[79][80] and that “Rosh” was used to post a favorable review of More Guns, Less Crime on Amazon.com. Lott has claimed that the “Rosh” review was written by his son and wife.[80]

“I probably shouldn’t have done it—I know I shouldn’t have done it—but it’s hard to think of any big advantage I got except to be able to comment fictitiously,” Lott told the Washington Post in 2003.[80]

Again, looking at this objectively, this guy basically tried to ‘Debbie Dallas’ people and got caught(like Debbie Dallas). It just doesn’t look reliable.

Mass shootings also represent a very small percentage of the total gun related deaths that occur in the US every year. For instance, in 2013, over 21,000 people committed suicide using a firearm. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

Here’s a few other ‘STATS’ for discussion. If there’s anything wrong with these please chime in, I actually want to have a real discussion formed on facts, not shady looking calculations.

First data sourced from the UNODC.
Second is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Attachments:

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I’m not pretending, I don’t live in fantasy land, yes making a bomb is that easy, and it is time for people to get yheir heads out of their azz and have the conversation. We have a media that feeds fuel to the hate and we, as a country are very divided. But it is time to have the conversations. There are a lot of theories. Some are with merit and others are a joke. But it’s time for all to be heard, give sound logical input, and strive for resolve. I accept the gang bangers shooting each other and drug dealers waging war on each other. I accept casualties of war, I accept true lagitiment accidents, and I accept an eye for an eye mentality. I don’t accept innocent children and others being slain for no other logical reason.
Society evolving into a fear of each other isn’t what I consider Freedom. That’s the cost of deteriorating freedoms on many different levels.
I choose to not live in fear. But I still find it hard to not be concerned when my daughter’s are out enjoying simple things in public events.

jake47 wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>crappie55369 wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>jake47 wrote:</div>
On a side note, I have watched all lot of people I am associated with on social media scream out against guns after the Las Vegas and now Texas shootings. However, I did not see one single mention from any of those same people when the guy in New York rented a truck and proceeded to drive into a crowd, killing and injuring many. This to me is evidence that many (all?) of the people I am associated with on social media are sheep and will only cry when main stream media tells them to.

Are you suggesting that those same people should be screaming against truck rentals? Because that would be the logical correlation to your argument – both the gun and truck being the weapon in these cases. I am guessing you are suggesting that they should have been screaming out against…well what? people from certain countries shouldn’t be here? certain faiths? Not exactly sure what they should have been screaming out against in your eyes but if you are attempting to correlate gun control with people control those are different subjects entirely

Crappie

Screaming may have been the wrong term….my point was that it seems most people (sample size=my social media feed) aren’t outraged by the event (murder), but rather the tool(guns or truck). If people (again in my feed) were so incensed by the violence then they would have been outspoken about the
guy slamming into a crowd of people with a truck as well. Instead it was radio silence (for the third time, in my feed).

If you know me, which you don’t, you would know that I certainly wouldn’t advocate for banning rental vehicles, because that would be more government intervention. My point, as biggill alluded to, is that people (in my feed [4th]) were not outraged by the truck massacre because somebody didn’t tell them to be outraged by it.

I understand your question, but I think the answer lies outside of the media. Again, trying to put on an objective hat to answer this question.

One event is another in a long line of similar incidents(mass shootings by guns/assault rifles).

The other is a seemingly isolated event with little to no connection to any other recent events(rental truck runs over people). Apart from maybe that nazi running people over.

One uses a ‘tool'(truck/car) that millions of Americans NEED to use every single day to get to work, bring their kids to school, support a family.

One uses a ‘tool’ that historically shown very few positive personal use cases in the USA(assault rifle).

If there were hundreds of ‘positive’ news articles about assault rifles to counteract the mass shooting articles, I might feel differently. I’m just not sure I’ve ever seen like a real, tangible, good thing that has happened by a civilian having an assault rifle.

So, the impacts of people having cars tilt heavily towards ‘a positive for society’, while the visible impact of people getting their hands on assault rifles tend to skew more towards, ‘used to kill people extremely efficiently.’ Most people see thousands of cars a day and have seen 0 fatalities caused by them. Meanwhile, a lot of people only see assault rifles when a shooting happens.

If those things exist, then I don’t know, maybe gun supporters and their side of the media need to do a better job explaining to the general public why assault rifles are good for everyone? As it sits, there isn’t really a need to defend cars/trucks because they are essential for many Americans. I don’t think guns fit that same criteria.

It’s just a lot easier to fill in one of these arguments for most people:

People shouldn’t have assault rifles because _______
People should have assault rifles because ________.

Again, assuming that ‘it’s not illegal’ is a lame argument.

This has gotten too long winded for my taste.

biggill wrote:

This has gotten too long winded for my taste.

I was really hoping your Viagra story would help

My sentiments exactly. Though I like it, I think its like a preasure relief valve.

I don’t think I was referring to th viagra thing.

biggill wrote:

This has gotten too long winded for my taste.

Wake me up when it’s over…

Randy Wieland wrote:

I’m not pretending, I don’t live in fantasy land, yes making a bomb is that easy, and it is time for people to get yheir heads out of their azz and have the conversation. We have a media that feeds fuel to the hate and we, as a country are very divided. But it is time to have the conversations. There are a lot of theories. Some are with merit and others are a joke. But it’s time for all to be heard, give sound logical input, and strive for resolve. I accept the gang bangers shooting each other and drug dealers waging war on each other. I accept casualties of war, I accept true lagitiment accidents, and I accept an eye for an eye mentality. I don’t accept innocent children and others being slain for no other logical reason.
Society evolving into a fear of each other isn’t what I consider Freedom. That’s the cost of deteriorating freedoms on many different levels.
I choose to not live in fear. But I still find it hard to not be concerned when my daughter’s are out enjoying simple things in public events.

Absolutley the hardest part. I’m 33 never had intruder drills in school (columbine was my freshmen year) and my parents never discussed what to do in a shooting. My kids are 5/3 and I will have to have those discussions. My son has intruder drills and his classroom is able to be locked down and barricaded.

biggill wrote:

This has gotten too long winded for my taste.

See you next time!

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
This has gotten too long winded for my taste.

Wake me up when it’s over…

I will take a long, well-researched, sourced post that asks difficult, honest questions over a one-liner with phony statistics any day.

I don’t mean to pick on you guys specifically, I think you’re both good eggs. But I feel these comments are indicative of part of the problem — the modern American attention span is non-existent. You wonder why we can’t make any progress, you have people yawning and checking out because they already have their minds made up. These stories stay hot for a week or two, then everyone forgets. Then a month later it happens again, and we start all over at square 1, which is basically lefties screaming for gun control and righties screaming at the lefties and of course the media for making it all about guns.

Or I simply don’t put a lot of emphasis on fishing forum political conversations. When posts get long they lack thoroughness. If I start to see spelling, punctuation and grammar errors, I know that they are probably not as well thought out as they should be and probably not the best portrayal of their true thoughts. For me it’s not worth debating.

Bottom line, you like them, I don’t.

biggill wrote:

When posts get long they lack thoroughness.

errrr… ok

biggill wrote:

If I start to see spelling, punctuation and grammar errors, I know that they are probably not as well thought out as they should be and probably not the best portrayal of their true thoughts.

Shoot, half the people on this forum don’t know the difference between the words “advice” and “advise.” That’s hardly unique to this thread.

But fair enough, I get it.

And to think, this thread started as conveying our thoughts and condolences. Who knew what it would morph into.

pool2fool wrote:

I don’t mean to pick on you guys specifically, I think you’re both good eggs. But I feel these comments are indicative of part of the problem — the modern American attention span is non-existent.

Well how respectful of you not to label us as “bad eggs”…

biggill was also making another statement that we all know about but apparently I may have been the only one to pick up on.
There comes a time when a person goes too far in trying to make their point. Like someone taking 45 minutes to communicate what they could have said in 10 minutes. Passing the tipping point on losing your audience. Whether a long winded verbal dissertation or pecking away at a keyboard and/or cutting and pasting for half a forum page, the eyes glass over and the mind starts thinking about what to have for dinner. And then this all spins in to one guy trying to post smarter than the one before him. Like me…

Pretty simple though…don’t’cha know

What a crock! Guy goes through the effort of doing some research in an effort to have a discussion about the issues and he gets lambasted for making the thread too boring and longwinded. This thread is meant to give condolences and show respect for those who died and their families? I can’t think of anything more insulting to them then disregarding a chance at having a discussion on the issues thought to be part of the problem because it involved too much thinking.

“But I feel these comments are indicative of part of the problem — the modern American attention span is non-existent. You wonder why we can’t make any progress, you have people yawning and checking out because they already have their minds made up.”

That’s a fact jack.

Phil i will try to read through what you presented and respond via PM. I am not any kind of expert on this material, but that can be a great thing going into a discussion right…

biggill wrote:

Or I simply don’t put a lot of emphasis on fishing forum political conversations. When posts get long they lack thoroughness. If I start to see spelling, punctuation and grammar errors, I know that they are probably not as well thought out as they should be and probably not the best portrayal of their true thoughts. For me it’s not worth debating.

Bottom line, you like them, I don’t.

Please let me know where I was not thorough, I would be happy to learn something today!

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>pool2fool wrote:</div>
I don’t mean to pick on you guys specifically, I think you’re both good eggs. But I feel these comments are indicative of part of the problem — the modern American attention span is non-existent.

Well how respectful of you not to label us as “bad eggs”…

biggill was also making another statement that we all know about but apparently I may have been the only one to pick up on.
There comes a time when a person goes too far in trying to make their point. Like someone taking 45 minutes to communicate what they could have said in 10 minutes. Passing the tipping point on losing your audience. Whether a long winded verbal dissertation or pecking away at a keyboard and/or cutting and pasting for half a forum page, the eyes glass over and the mind starts thinking about what to have for dinner. And then this all spins in to one guy trying to post smarter than the one before him. Like me…

Pretty simple though…don’t’cha know

Gotcha, words are scary! I will try to communicate through by emoticons next time!

Actual discussions require thought and reason, arguments require quick replies and emojis.

I hope you can find the extra 5 minutes to read my post and put together a real reply, I invite an actual cordial conversation on here for once.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

Well how respectful of you not to label us as “bad eggs”…

I’m walking on egg shells here, (ok bad pun) just trying to state an argument without it being construed as disrespectful or a personal attack. Nothing more.

Dutchboy wrote:

And to think, this thread started as conveying our thoughts and condolences. Who knew what it would morph into.

I think you’ve been at this long enough to know these threads rarely stay in the pocket, but I’ll bite: What exactly did it morph into? I see a lengthy but respectful and genuine discussion between people who are searching for answers and who would love to never see another thread about hundreds of holes blown into dozens of Americans.

crappie55369 wrote:

I can’t think of anything more insulting to them then disregarding a chance at having a discussion on the issues thought to be part of the problem because it involved too much thinking.

“Thinking is difficult, that’s why most people judge.” Somebody much smarter than I said that.

I am waiting to see the stats about mass shootings happening 100x more often in the US than anywhere else ?

If you think taking away my 19 guns and millions more like me, is gonna stop some nut job with 1 gun, your logic is flawed. Would sure make your gun numbers graph look worthless though, wouldn’t it ?

Heard on the news this morning that the guy escaped from a mental health facility about 4 or 5 years ago in New Mexico, didn’t elaborate any more then that, so he has had ongoing long term problems.

I’m just catching up on the site here, I can’t believe someone made a joke regarding the slaughter of people at their place of worship.
Mental illness truly is widespread.

Think about what it would take to absolutely guarantee this kind of thing cannot happen. Is that the kind of society you want to live in? Freedom is expensive. Terribly so. Our forefathers decided it was worth it and I think most still do.

crappie55369 wrote:

What a crock! Guy goes through the effort of doing some research in an effort to have a discussion about the issues and he gets lambasted for making the thread too boring and longwinded. This thread is meant to give condolences and show respect for those who died and their families? I can’t think of anything more insulting to them then disregarding a chance at having a discussion on the issues thought to be part of the problem because it involved too much thinking.

“But I feel these comments are indicative of part of the problem — the modern American attention span is non-existent. You wonder why we can’t make any progress, you have people yawning and checking out because they already have their minds made up.”

That’s a fact jack.

Phil i will try to read through what you presented and respond via PM. I am not any kind of expert on this material, but that can be a great thing going into a discussion right…

Okay Crappie, You call out my post as a “crock” and yet you reinforce my exact point when you close your post with this statement. About losing your audience when the communication becomes too long and detailed…
“Phil i will try to read through what you presented and respond via PM. I am not any kind of expert on this material, but that can be a great thing going into a discussion right…”
I see this as blatantly hypocritical for you to condemn myself and other’s for not reading all that is written here and then self admit you did not do so yourself?
Why did you not read and study this on your first pass? Would you have actually gone back then and read it if you had not first posted to discredit my observation? Whatever…
What really rankles me is this statement, “I can’t think of anything more insulting to them then disregarding a chance at having a discussion on the issues thought to be part of the problem because it involved too much thinking.”
You and other’s here having a self righteous attitude that because we all don’t share the same opinions or methods to discuss something, makes us somehow less respectful or insensitive to mass murders. That and this “superior” position that some of us are just non-thinking grunts because we don’t ramble or meet your definition “intelligent discussion”. Some of the most intelligent people are the ones’ with the least to say.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

I see this as blatantly hypocritical for you to condemn myself and other’s for not reading all that is written here and then self admit you did not do so yourself?

I did read his post. Contrary to what you might believe when you review information it can take time to formulate opinions and engage with the material. When you actually have a discussion you don’t just barf out all the same regurgitated ideas you already came to a long time ago. Sometimes you have to sit and think about it and contemplate before responding.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

You and other’s here having a self righteous attitude that because we all don’t share the same opinions or methods to discuss something, makes us somehow less respectful or insensitive to mass murders. That and this “superior” position that some of us are just non-thinking grunts because we don’t ramble or meet your definition “intelligent discussion”. Some of the most intelligent people are the ones’ with the least to say.

A whole lot of things put in my mouth here that I did not say. I will say this though. The definition of “discussion” is pretty clear. I will provide it for you –

definition – the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

Its that last part that is lacking. This isn’t about being smart or superior – its about being open to other views and engaging in martial to learn and develop viewpoints. You don’t make change by just spewing out the same ideas you have believed in the last 20 years of your life and that’s all that’s been happening here. Is this the right place to have a discussion and try to propagate change? Probably not, but the desire was brought up by lots of posters in this thread. And as with many threads that have come before it and will come later, if you don’t like what someone says don’t open the thread and respond. You think Phil’s comments are longwinded and boring? Great, feel free to keep it to yourself.

You walleye student have often attempted to post humor to lighten the mood when posts get too heavy. Normally, I think that’s a good thing and its appreciated. In this case, I find your attempts to divert the attempt at discussion to be insulting to those affected by this tragedy and those that want to change the pattern we are seeing in this country.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

Some of the most intelligent people are the ones’ with the least to say.

DITTO

Crappie, We all react and engage issues differently and that is what makes us “individuals”. These topics no doubt can get heated and that is when our human emotions are revealed. I have settled down now and appreciate your response as staying respectful. I thank you for that.