Another Mille Lacs Icon Closing Up Shop?

  • Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1791862

    I’m not in the know but it’s a great point Zander wrote here.
    Leaves evidence to the fact many of the rumblings of what’s going on simply as bitter gossip. Which I don’t care for no matter who’s involved.

    No Nick, not unsubstantiated gossip. Go back and look at the facts I presented. There clearly is a pattern and therefore an objective. Look again at where the property’s have been purchased including Big Sandy Lodge in 2016. As promised by Art Gahbow himself in 1989…”The goal is to get back the original Mille Lacs, Sandy Lake and Rice Lake Reservations”

    Believe what you want to believe…I don’t care. But I also respect the ML Band’s intelligence enough that they know they don’t need to purchase every single available property to further their objectives.

    Kyhl
    Savage
    Posts: 749
    #1791864

    They don’t have to buy all the properties in order or as soon as they are listed for sale. Better to buy them randomly until there are hodge-podge of properties spread all over. That will put the squeeze on the properties in between.

    I have a friend on the side over by Kathio. He is starting to feel the squeeze. We talked about this last Sunday while sitting in his front yard overlooking the lake. He said he is fine as long as his neighbors stay, but they are getting older. If they sell, he probably will feel compelled to sell as well.
    I get that the band is not buying all the properties for sale. They are buying enough of them though for the current owners to take notice.

    nhamm
    Inactive
    Robbinsdale
    Posts: 7348
    #1791873

    Andy I guess I don’t see any patterns and just a 30yr old quote. Overtime prices only go up, imagine if they had purchased all the real estate 30yrs ago, make alot more financial sense wouldn’t it? Then why would they wait another 30yrs?

    Buying land I’m sure is a card the tribes play with the government, how much that card actually matters I don’t know. But the fact is they could gobble it up tomorrow, the question remains why they haven’t?

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1791881

    Overtime prices only go up, imagine if they had purchased all the real estate 30yrs ago, make alot more financial sense wouldn’t it?

    Sure it would have, but the casino and it’s profits didn’t begin until 25 years ago.

    But the fact is they could gobble it up tomorrow, the question remains why they haven’t?

    I’m sure they have their reasons but if you noticed, what they have been buying is businesses or commercial land/properties. Not individual residential property.

    I don’t know, why don’t you ask them?

    In the end I guess we all see what we want to see…myself included. I don’t suspect some conspiracy as other’s claim, but I do see a pattern in what and where the band is focusing its purchases.

    Think I’ll do some fishing at Mille Lacs this weekend. neutral

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16786
    #1791883

    Once purchased by the band the tax status changes. Why buy all the land when you can wait for the tax foreclosures to start? Think what you all want to they know what they are doing.

    Kyhl
    Savage
    Posts: 749
    #1791892

    I’m sure they have their reasons but if you noticed, what they have been buying is businesses or commercial land/properties. Not individual residential property.

    I don’t know, why don’t you ask them?

    In the end I guess we all see what we want to see…myself included. I don’t suspect some conspiracy as other’s claim, but I do see a pattern in what and where the band is focusing its purchases.

    Think I’ll do some fishing at Mille Lacs this weekend. neutral

    They are buying individual properties. Look at the ML County property map.
    I did a quick check along Twilight Road, near Kathio. Quickly found three lake shore properties in a row listed as owned by the ML Band.
    http://gis.co.mille-lacs.mn.us/link/jsfe/index.aspx

    Parcels
    17-007-0803,
    17-007-0804,
    17-007-0805

    Plus the property behind them along the west side of Hwy 169, 17-007-0100.

    I imagine a guy could find a bunch of them if they spent more than the 5 minutes that I spent.

    Another quick scan, they have purchased large parcels west of 169 between Kathio and 27 already, plus lake shore.

    slawrenz
    Twin Cities
    Posts: 234
    #1791897

    Call me Dense…but why does it matter what they buy, whatever their motive. If they have the money and it appears they do… they have as much right as you or I to purchase it??????

    Kyhl
    Savage
    Posts: 749
    #1791902

    Call me Dense…but why does it matter what they buy, whatever their motive. If they have the money and it appears they do… they have as much right as you or I to purchase it??????

    While I agree with that sentiment, that they can buy things fair and square, it really isn’t fair and square. They get much funding from the Feds. Then often these properties go off the tax rolls making their neighbors pick up more and more of the tab. Squeezing out the others owners. City gov’ts get stretched beyond their means.

    slawrenz
    Twin Cities
    Posts: 234
    #1791903

    I think there money disproportionately comes from people willingly parting with it at their two large buildings, one up the road, and the other in Hinckley.

    Red Eye
    Posts: 953
    #1791914

    I think the band is doing it very smartly. Seems like even they know that if you spread enough res houses/property around property values of everything else are going to plummet. Then swoop in and buy it for pennies on the dollar.

    Kyhl
    Savage
    Posts: 749
    #1791925

    I think there money disproportionately comes from people willingly parting with it at their two large buildings, one up the road, and the other in Hinckley.

    There is a lot of that hypocrisy in my neighborhood. They don’t seem to see the connection of them spending money at the casino every stinking day, then they complain about a neighboring property or business that is sold to the band using their money.

    That issue is just as frustrating.

    slawrenz
    Twin Cities
    Posts: 234
    #1791936

    Me, I find fishing much more fun than gambling.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11889
    #1791938

    Once purchased by the band the tax status changes.

    Does it though? I thought Tribal Lands had to be approved to be put in trust to gain tax free status. They own a number of hotels in the metro that as far as I know are still taxed.

    outdoorsmn
    Posts: 129
    #1791955

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dutchboy wrote:</div>
    Once purchased by the band the tax status changes.

    Does it though? I thought Tribal Lands had to be approved to be put in trust to gain tax free status. They own a number of hotels in the metro that as far as I know are still taxed.

    I’ve heard the tax status does change around Mille Lacs. I know a couple property owners in the area and their property taxes are jumping 15-20% per year. Supposedly this is the reason…?

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1791975

    I hesitate to respond anymore being that someone may search hard enough to find something I’ve posted as inaccurate or just plain incorrect. While I may not be 100%, I think most of what I put out holds some truth to it.

    Regardless, from what I understand…the only change or loss in tax revenue from the businesses that were purchased was the loss of the taxes from the business itself, which matters little since they closed their doors anyway.

    But without offering my opinions, this is directly from the Mille Band of Ojibwe website….

    “American Indians pay federal income tax on all of their income, and most pay state income taxes. The only exceptions are American Indians who live and work on the reservation – they do not pay state income taxes. In addition, people who live on trust lands do not pay real estate taxes, because they lease rather than own the property.

    While lands owned by the United States in trust for tribes, including certain Mille Lacs Band lands, are not subject to state and local taxes, the Band does pay real estate taxes on all lands it owns. In 2010, the Mille Lacs Band, Mille Lacs Corporate Ventures, and Grand Casino Mille Lacs paid $454,389 in property taxes to Mille Lacs County, $1,118,884 to Pine County and $102,706 to Aitkin County.

    Grand Casino Mille Lacs and Grand Casino Hinckley have paid more than $86 million in federal and state taxes based on wages paid to employees since 1991. In addition, the Band shares sales, liquor, cigarette, gas, motor vehicle, and other taxes collected on reservation trust lands with the State of Minnesota, which in turn shares those taxes with local governments. In 2011, the State’s share of sales taxes collected by the Band at its businesses was almost $1.1 million.”

    That’s all folks…heading up this weekend for 4 days, turning my attention to fishing, fun, drinking some beers and hanging out with the neighbors. peace

    fishingdm
    Posts: 99
    #1792023

    At least when the band buys business properties they put money into them to fix them up. Instead of letting them fall into disrepair.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16786
    #1792051

    I have nothing against the ML band. As a business decision they have decided to allow the netting of spawning Walleyes. Thats the problem I have. Quit netting during the spawn. Back in the day netting spawning Walleyes was the method used because venturing out onto the lake was a dangerous proposition. They were used for ceremonial purposes at that time. Today they (GLIFWC) has the financial where with-all to buy a boat and get their fish outside of the spawning times.

    Thats the reason I don’t go the the Casino’s, buy gas at their stations, bank at their banks, eat sandwiches at there restaurants, rent motel rooms at their resorts.

    And just so you don’t turn this into a racists thread, I also have quit fishing Mille Lacs for the last 10 years. The die has been cast up there. Everything now is a matter of time. One hundred years from now the lake will be empty, it will be a ghetto, the Casinos will have been closed, the money will have been siphoned off. The band will be located (where most band members already live) in Minneapolis in government housing. Thats United States government housing.

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17834
    #1792055

    Netting of spawning walleyes? How about halt the netting of walleyes and other fish PERIOD?

    Dutchboy, you’re missing out on arguably the best bass and muskie fishing in the entire country. Unless of course, you’re a meat hunter then I could see why you’d abandon that lake.

    pool2fool
    Inactive
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 1709
    #1792079

    The die has been cast up there. Everything now is a matter of time. One hundred years from now the lake will be empty, it will be a ghetto, the Casinos will have been closed, the money will have been siphoned off. The band will be located (where most band members already live) in Minneapolis in government housing. Thats United States government housing.

    I can’t argue with your principled stance on netting during the spawn, every person draws their own line and I certainly respect that.

    But it’s awfully easy to tout the “100 years from now” doom and gloom when none of us will be around to see how that works out. I would be interested to know what factors you predict to turn around this trend:

    tribal gaming revenue
    (via Global Gaming Business Magazine)

    I think 2008-2009 is the only year revenue has not grown, and the loss was like 1%. This after what the IMF has called the greatest economic recession since the 1930s.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11889
    #1792089

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox, riddle me this…

    Zander the rest of your rant is a gross misrepresentation of Andy’s posts on the subject. Perhaps you should go re-read his posts on page 4 and 5 of this thread which clearly do not fall in line with your interpretation of what he posted. Andy and I do not always agree, but he presents facts in an even handed manner and tries to limit his personal opinion on these matters, he is also one of the more well studied students (pun intended) on this matter, and your attack on him is wholly unjustified imo.

    As for your main question about the quota percentages, it is my belief (and many others) that the Mille Lacs band would do away with netting if it were solely up to them. It’s bad PR that continually affects their Golden Goose Casino’s bottom line. And the majority of the groups netting are from WI, which has to frustrate the ML tribe even more when a ghost net happens or a dump pile of Northern, Smallies and Musky is found.

    P2F that chart isn’t very helpful in this discussion imo, as no one knows how the revenue is for ML, Hinckley or any other out-state casino. I’m sure they are not hurting, but I’d imagine their revenues are not growing at the same rate as the rest of the industry that is located in or near population centers.

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1792095

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox, riddle me this…

    …if what you say is true and the band is trying to depress the local economy by negatively impacting the state sportfishery in an effort to drive down real estate prices so they can purchase back the land inside what they believe to be their rightful reservation boundaries…

    How can you describe their motives the way you have and explain to everyone why they’ve voluntarily chosen to be so generous?????

    This is how far this has all gone with those in your camp sharing a similar mindset:

    You freak out over the rumor of the band buying an old bait shop, yet when a group of red-foreign-wealthy-commie-chinamen buy the largest piece of real estate occupied by the most prestigious resort on the lake? You are totally fine with it.

    And No, they didn’t get outbid you dolt—they just didn’t want to buy the place!!! How can that be so hard for you to accept?!? Oh wait, how silly of me to ask that since I know the answer. You won’t accept it because it completely contradicts the propaganda you’ve brainwashed yourself into believing.

    If you want to sit in your bomb shelter wearing tinfoil hats telling yourself the reason why they didn’t but Izaty’s was because of some Chinese businessmen outbidding them….well, suit yourself. If you can’t handle the truth then by all means continue doing your best to avoid it.

    I’m not a racist though, and I treat everyone with mutual respect until given a reason not to.

    I have respect for them and want to carry myself in a manner to have that respect be mutual. Hopefully I can be so lucky….

    Zander,
    I will respectfully respond even though I don’t believe your post really deserves a respectful response. Regardless, I hold myself to a higher standard.

    Go back and read my responses and tell where I ever said “the band is trying to depress the local economy by negatively impacting the state sportfishery in an effort to drive down real estate prices so they can purchase back the land inside what they believe to be their rightful reservation boundaries…”“?

    You asked for possible explanation or opinion on the what and where the band is buying property around the lake and I responded respectfully without insult.

    Yet now you put me “your camp sharing a similar mindset“. How based on my responses leads you to put me in a camp of similar mindset? You act like you know me, which you clearly don’t…yet you attacked me?

    You go on then to label me a “dolt” and then refer to the Chinese as “red-foreign-wealthy-commie-chinamen”

    You close with this…“I have respect for them and want to carry myself in a manner to have that respect be mutual. Hopefully I can be so lucky….”

    Hopefully you will understand if I have no mutual respect for you as you have not afforded that to me. And that, after I responded to all your previous posts respectfully and without personally insulting you.

    Good Day

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1792115

    “land inside what they believe to be their rightful reservation boundaries…”

    …then why do they generously give the state a large portion of their allotted quota?….

    …then why in the hell would they elect to give 20% of the quota that is rightfully and indisputably theirs back….. How can you describe their motives the way you have and explain to everyone why they’ve voluntarily chosen to be so generous?????….

    …”a group of flush Chinese businessmen”….. This is how far this has all gone with those in your camp sharing a similar mindset:

    ….”a group of red-foreign-wealthy-commie-chinamen buy the largest piece of real estate occupied by the most prestigious resort on the lake?

    ….”they didn’t get outbid you dolt—they just didn’t want to buy the place!!! How can that be so hard for you to accept?!? Oh wait, how silly of me to ask that since I know the answer. You won’t accept it because it completely contradicts the propaganda you’ve brainwashed yourself into believing.”

    ….”some Chinese businessmen”… ….”I’m not a racist though, and I treat everyone with mutual respect”…..

    ….”I try to avoid being a hypocrite. This makes it hard for me, a guy that holds stereotypes pertaining to a group of people not being ambitious, industrial, able to assimilate, succeed, that are a bunch of degenerate alcoholic freeloaders”….

    …”well, when a group of those people blow up all those misperceptions I have by being ambitious, industrial, successful, organized, focused on developing economic opportunities by owning and improving businesses in their community….I can’t have it both ways and talk out of both sides of my mouth without being a total hypocrite. I can’t go to other reservations pretty much wherever and bitch about their residents being a bunch of drunks that don’t give a sh– that are freeloading off the government and then turn around and also bitch about the band being savvy and motivated businessman that are looking to expand and prosper. Can I?…..

    And that is why I say, “Good for Them!”

    They are hands down….care about their community, want to have a vested interest in it, and they’ve done awesome jobs on improving and building up the businesses they’ve purchased’….

    This is the 21st Century and things change with time. I think most people here that have issues with the tribes have issues with the discrimination which is worded into a document that needs some serious up-dating. The idea that the tribes “believe ” they are the title-holders to a property can be argued in courts and likely found against if current anti-discrimation values are applied….as they should be. Remember, 21 st century….not 18something. The whole treaty needs re-vamping much like the government does every year with tax tables. And since discrimination of any kind is such a big no-no in this country, this current treaty needs to see some super serious revision in that regard period.

    You’re so quick to point out the tribes being benevolent in giving up a percentage of fish, but go on later to say that these persons are so well-adapted and successful in the business community. If they do so well in life, why do they need to rape a resource by netting in the first place since they’re, as you say, successful and certainly have no need to get fish other than the same way everyone else does today? And certainly if they’re so successful in life they don’t need any more government money and healthcare assistance now do they? I haven’t seen any instance where the tribes are contacting the government saying they no longer need any of these goodies….have you? Nor have I seen any trends evolving where the tribes bring the indian street people back to their own stomping grounds instead of leaving them to waste away….so much for taking care of your own kind eh?

    And as for you being racist, perhaps you re-visit your own commentary on the Chinese. You said yourself the tribes didn’t want anything to do with a dud resort that Chinese bought, so why the slams against them if you are indeed not racist and be careful now because thru your own admission they didn’t do anything to you, which is your own guideline for becoming racist. Don’t talk out of both sides of your face. Unless of course you can label yourself a dolt too as well as racist.

    The government could end this crap by simply changing how we all identify our supposed race on documents. Instead of being Hispanic or AsianAmerican, we all should be American first: then list of African descent or Asian Descent or whatever descent you want to be. I’d be American of White Native Descent. See where I’m going. I can’t think of too many here that wouldn’t be American of White Native Descent since most all of them were born here on American soil and that makes them every bit as much a NATIVE AMERICAN and those who think they have a leg up on the rest of us. Redoing the race identity thing would get rid of racism in a blink and get the so called natives on track with the current world, where they belong.

    If this current President had a lick of smarts [and some balls] he’d be snuffing out the way prejudice is allowed for a certain few and cancelling the paper ticket the tribes live on and getting rid of this hypocrisy that’s nothing more than a money eating burden on society.

    Kyhl
    Savage
    Posts: 749
    #1792126

    Zander Nordby, you are making a case but it isn’t the case that you think you are making. Might be time to step away from the keyboard and re-read what has been said before going on another diatribe.

    nhamm
    Inactive
    Robbinsdale
    Posts: 7348
    #1792157

    Online I feel sometimes posters don’t necessarily laser point their comments at certain people, just more generally speaking. So when Zander calls Andy a dolt, he’s really just calling all people who have the mindset of nets are bad and tribes taking over the world are all dolts. doah

    It’s a bit aggresive but well stated imo.

    bobberstop4054
    Posts: 178
    #1792159

    im just a old hippie landowner on big point who would like to keep a couple here and there no more politics

    gim
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17834
    #1792166

    Zanderboy, I believe you brought up a lot of good points. The lake is simply not the same as it once was in terms of an ecosystem. The water is obviously clearer. The water is obviously warmer. There are obviously more bass. There are obviously more pike. There are obviously more invasive species. There is clearly an abundance of larger walleyes in the lake and they are an eating machine that often prey on their own smaller kind. Winter fishing pressure has increased tenfold because people sit there in their ice castles for weeks drinking beer and watching satellite TV. However, I do think that mass netting of fish during their spawning period is a contributing factor as well. Whether or not its a large amount or a small amount, if those fish are removed, they cannot complete the spawning cycle, correct? I think that the glory days of keeping 4 fish on a daily basis is behind us in that lake, perhaps forever. It doesn’t bother me. I’m not out there to keep them and frankly I’m fine with it being a trophy smallmouth and muskie fishery instead. Keep it real

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1792184

    So when Zander calls Andy a dolt, he’s really just calling all people who have the mindset of nets are bad and tribes taking over the world are all dolts. doah

    It’s a bit aggresive but well stated imo.

    The thing is Nick, I never stated or took the position I was in “the mindset of nets are bad and tribes taking over the world”, yet not only was I included but I was the lightning rod.

    But yeah, sure…well stated Zanderboy applause

    It’s threads like these that remind me now of why Steve Fellegy had finally had enough. flame

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16786
    #1792189

    Oh Andy, we have guys just like this guy over on LSF. If you let them ramble they will always prove themselves out. These are the “educated” few in the land that know exactly whats wrong and anyone who doesn’t agree is automatically a uneducated rube.

    Let him ramble, he soon will grow tired of beating his chest and move on. coffee

    Outdraft
    Western Wi.
    Posts: 1149
    #1792239

    Wow.I haven’t followed this thread for awhile. Since the subject has shifted from the OP to the lake itself and more specifically about the walleye, can one assume that the biggest reason for the lack of people aka walleye fisher people not going to the resorts is directly related to a 0-1 fish limit? How about that for pissing people off. Now keep a secret, I did it for my enjoyment and hopefully others

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