So the etec thread got me thinking about this. After having engine issues and Sheldon fixing them. It was not the problem but he suggested I run 87 octane as that is what my Opti was meant to run on and they don’t like the extra octane. So for now I am mixing 91 octane and regular 87. Doable but kind of a pain, does anyone know of a gas station in the north metro or anywhere not to far that has it. I have tried google searches and nothing seems to work they all just have 91 after investigating. The only other way to get it is order a 55 gallon drum and have it somewhere, which I thought about plenty just don’t have anywhere safe to store it.
IDO » Forums » Fishing Forums » General Discussion Forum » 87 Non Oxy
87 Non Oxy
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October 4, 2024 at 2:13 pm #2292347
My understanding is that per state law all non-ethanol gasoline has to be 91 octane in MN. I think WI sells ethanol free 87 octane though, so Hudson would be your best bet.
October 4, 2024 at 2:15 pm #2292348My understanding is that per state law all non-ethanol gasoline has to be 91 octane in MN. I think WI sells ethanol free 87 octane though, so Hudson would be your best bet.
Interesting I wonder why a law would be needed.
October 4, 2024 at 2:24 pm #2292350I found this under the MN Statutes.
b) The nonoxygenated gasoline must be unleaded premium grade as defined in section 239.751, subdivision 4.
They define premium grade as 91 octane or higher, per this statute.
Subd. 4.Use of term “premium.” The term “premium” may be used only to advertise, or to identify a dispenser used to dispense, gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or greater.
As to why this is, I have no idea.
October 4, 2024 at 2:34 pm #2292352I run non-ethanol 87 or 89 when I can find it (which is becoming more and more difficult in recent years). If I have to choose between running 91 non-ethanol or 87 with ethanol, it’s 91 every time.
This goes for the 115 Opti on my fishing boat or the 150 4 stroke Mercury on the tritoon.
October 4, 2024 at 2:49 pm #2292354That list doesn’t indicate anything about 87 octane. It only says ethanol free and then shows the locations. I’d bet every location is 91 octane.
Plus its also 6 years old.
Alex FoxPosts: 426October 4, 2024 at 2:56 pm #2292356I stopped at the Casey’s in Ogilvie last weekend and I could swear their pump said 87 non oxy. I thought it strange at the time and wondered if it was a typo or a scam. Now I’m wondering.
October 4, 2024 at 3:33 pm #2292358I stopped at the Casey’s in Ogilvie last weekend and I could swear their pump said 87 non oxy. I thought it strange at the time and wondered if it was a typo or a scam. Now I’m wondering.
Ok, that one I might be able to hit on the way to some stuff. I will check it out thanks.
October 4, 2024 at 3:36 pm #2292359I checked the list Rodwork and will do a drive by a couple to see if its 87 or 91.
mojoPosts: 749October 4, 2024 at 5:39 pm #2292374I searched the Hudson area for non-oxygenated fuel and the only current options are 91 octane. Fleet Farm used to sell 89 octane non-ethanol, the pumps are still there, but for at least 4 years now, those pumps have been labeled as Temporarily Unavailable. I believe the same tankers fill the Hudson stations that fill the Twin Cities stations.
Ethanol Shield additive would be a good option. I recommend it.
Another, less desirable, option would be to fill with 87 octane and buy a transfer pump, then when you know the boat may sit for a few weeks or longer, you could transfer the fuel from the boat into the family vehicles, add some non-ethanol to the boat and run it through the Optimax to clear the system of ethanol.
Knowing Sheldon, I’m surprised he didn’t mention having the Optimax flashed to run 91 octane – extra power and no ethanol worries. Just have to be careful if you get into a situation where premium is not available.
CaptainMuskyPosts: 23371October 4, 2024 at 8:07 pm #2292386You won’t find anything under 90 octane in n MN that doesn’t have ethanol. E88 is less àmount.
Jimmy JonesPosts: 2910October 4, 2024 at 8:22 pm #2292387Doesn’t the Kwik-Trip stations carry the non-oxy? I buy it all the time here in Rochester. Fleet Farm also has it as does an independant station/oil supplier…. Throndsons.
October 4, 2024 at 8:56 pm #2292392Many of the newer built Kwik Trips here in Wisconsin are selling 87 non-ethanol fuel.
LabDaddy1Posts: 2490October 5, 2024 at 12:47 pm #2292432Funnily enough, I was just talking about this with my buddy on the way to the croix the other day. I have a new 60 merc four-stroke and have been putting nothing but 91 non-oxy in it. I’ve had a time or two where I wanted to just throw some regular 87 in it in a pinch, but still didn’t. I know it CAN, but should I? I know this has been a big discussion already on here.
Oh yeah, I think my point was that I heard Prescott WI has a station with 87 non-oxy. I believe it was Prescott? If so, I’d go there to gas up the boat.
Reef WPosts: 2830October 5, 2024 at 12:53 pm #2292435. I have a new 60 merc four-stroke and have been putting nothing but 91 non-oxy in it. I’ve had a time or two where I wanted to just throw some regular 87 in it in a pinch, but still didn’t. I know it CAN, but should I?
I have 2015 60hp merc and used regular 87, with the quicksilver ethanol treatment, for a few years and nothing bad happened. Now I mostly use 91 non-oxy without treatments just because I’m lazy. If you’re going to use it up in a reasonable amount of time I don’t think it matters, the only problems are letting ethanol sit for a long time. Multi day trip, 87 is fine. Winter storage, fill with non-oxy. To use regular 87 you could also just not fill it up all the way so you turn it over faster.
October 6, 2024 at 8:58 am #2292524As much as I admire Sheldon and his work the only thing my 2000 Optimax has seen is 10% with over 1,800 hours with only one hiccup low pressure fuel pump in the VST. I do use Seafoam in the tank. Everything on the farm I use 10% and have not had fuel related issues and some tractors will sit for 6-7 months. Just my two cents.
October 6, 2024 at 12:30 pm #2292568I have to ask is it really necessary to worry about 4 points of octane in a modern computer controlled engine?
Wouldn’t the engine computer just adjust the timing by a degree or so to compensate for any ignition changes caused by running 91?
Just interested in knowing if octane really matters that much in modern engines.
Iowaboy1Posts: 3827October 6, 2024 at 6:06 pm #2292611Tom, thank you for the kind words, interestingly enough in over forty five years of being a mechanic and being in the corn belt of America, I have found those who have a vested interest in farming in any way shape or form have a way of saying they never have any problems, number one reason?? it affects their wallet and they will go to the ends of the earth to protect it.
I work for farmers everyday at my shop, and here they have zero problem running non oxy in all of their small engines and equipment as they have had personal experiences running the Ecrap and down time is expensive when you need to get going.
I have even worked for folks who are so in denial that Ecrap is the problem that will make up every excuse in the book as to why stuff wont run even when I have a failed part in my hand showing it to them.
Enough of this, I can argue and argue with over a hundred thousand hours of experience and I will never get anywhere.Grouse, you bet engines are sensitive to fuel, problem is most dont understand how an engine knows the difference, in todays modern engines the computer has an algorithm that uses the inputs from several sensors to determine this, the O2 sensor uses exhaust temperatures to tell the ECU whether the exhaust temps are rich or lean and it adjusts fuel ratios on the fly to correct whatever condition.
From there other sensors work with the O2 sensor to determine over the course of a tank of fuel used what fuel is in the tank, this is where short term and long term fuel trims come into play.
The algorithm isnt perfect as we still see several times per year where a car is running in a very rich condition, most often the owners have put in a tank of 85 percent ethanol and the computer gets stuck so to speak when E10 is put in the next tank and the computer hasnt had a chance to “relearn” the correct ratio and we have to reset it.As far as octane, 91 ignites slower, it is done so to help prevent preignition, spark knock, detonation, too much timing, high compression etc.
Turbocharged engines are prone to this as are high output engines, remember the 6.0, 8.1, and many others that required it?
The issue with high octane as noted in John’s original question with the Optimax motors is that is a short stroke motor, how does that make a difference??Simply put, with any short stroke motor, 91 octane is still burning at the bottom of the pistons stroke and especially on two strokes it will pollute the incoming air/fuel mix and it will soot the plugs in short order.
Using 87 octane, the the air/fuel charge is fairly well consumed and will not pollute the incoming air/fuel charge, there is bit of science to this as bore diameter, combustion chamber design, compression all have an effect.The Optimax motor was designed to run on lower octane fuel as it took the length of the stroke into account, and IF YOU READ THE MANUAL WITH UNDERSTANDING it says,, a minimum of 87 octane is to be used, read that again, a minimum of 87 octane, 87 octane is not mandatory.
Now, back to Ecrap fuel with any outboard, whiny investors who thought they were not making enough money threw their weight around to force every modern motor to be able to use it, with the advent of better materials and tuning it is now possible, years ago the big three outboard manufactures ran engines to destruction to find out if they would live choking and gagging on corn gas.
They failed miserably, not because the parts were junk, if you read the reports the fuel performed almost identical between ecrap and non oxy, so why did they fail??The exhaust temps were 300 degrees higher than non oxy fuel, this happened because oxygenated fuels have higher oxygen contents by their nature versus non oxy fuels.
Those high exhaust temps caused pistons to grow in size decreasing cylinder wall clearances which leads to scuffing, worse yet the higher temps cooked the oil to a point it no longer could lubricate anything, and when you get these things going on the piston gets above its melting point and you end up with a burnt piston and trashed motor, and remember, ecrap is a solvent and it will not blend with oil, instead it washes it off of moving parts.
The HPDI motors, do many of you realize that the engineers saw the issue with ecrap being a solvent?? yep, that is why oil is injected from the crankshaft side of the air chamber so that it does not have a chance to wash critical life giving oil off of the crankshaft, its bearings, the rod bearings, piston skirts, and cylinder walls.
On the intake stroke that oil is pulled through with the air and burnt when the fuel charge is burnt, no chance of losing lubrication before hand.
So better materials were engineered, better oils came to be through all of this which is a good thing as it does help a motor last longer in the hands of those who are too cheap to run good fuel and oil and throw in whatever abuse you can come up with.My final thoughts on ecrap, yes, if you use it fresh everyday you can get away with it, but if you let it set you will have problems down the road, its too bad we have to buy another product to extend its life, think about that, more expense per gallon.
More acres that should not be farmed, more chemicals applied, fuel used to plant, spray, consume energy to create all of this stuff, more fuel used to harvest it, more fuel used to haul it to the ecrap plants, more fuel used to haul it away in trucks or via rail.
YEP, ecrap is wonderful stuff, its costs are so high in so many ways but its making folks rich…… and we pay for all of it.
And to top it off,,,, we pay to use something that is less efficient per gallon in the name of the environment, think about that we use more per tank,, wouldnt it be less pollutive to use less per tank??
Safer for the environment?? not if you add up everything I mentioned.October 7, 2024 at 8:09 am #2292652Iowaboy thanks for the response for as to why I am looking for it. I ran to FF in Blaine yesterday to look at a couple guns and drove past the pumps to see what they had and it’s 91 non oxy. It’s not looking good for finding it local here. I will continue to mix my fuel as he recommended. If someone does actually find a pump in the area let me know although my hopes are certainly not up. Thanks fellas
CaptainMuskyPosts: 23371October 7, 2024 at 8:18 am #2292655I have to ask is it really necessary to worry about 4 points of octane in a modern computer controlled engine?
Wouldn’t the engine computer just adjust the timing by a degree or so to compensate for any ignition changes caused by running 91?
Just interested in knowing if octane really matters that much in modern engines.
Yes, it matters. These new engines are mostly direct injection and if they call for 90 octane or whatever and you use 87 yes, it would take away timing or whatever, but if I run a lot of 87 in my truck it starts to ping and I heard from someone who posted here that running 87 too much will cause pits in the pistons because of detonation.
RiverratPosts: 1586October 7, 2024 at 10:37 am #2292699I think you can only get the 87 non in places that sell race gas and special gasses. MN Farm lobbyists ensure that a little of their corn goes into everything. Fine by me, especially since we have an ethanol plant. PITA for people that have common engines asking for uncommon gasses.
October 8, 2024 at 5:43 pm #2292916Kwik trip in Prescott has N87. It’s cheaper than N91, and it’s a blessing they have it for all of our small engines.
Far from the north Metro, but if you planned to stock up and ever come down this way, it’s always available
October 9, 2024 at 7:57 am #2292975Kwik trip in Prescott has N87. It’s cheaper than N91, and it’s a blessing they have it for all of our small engines.
Far from the north Metro, but if you planned to stock up and ever come down this way, it’s always available
Thanks for the info. Sounds like I need to search across the border. I will need to stock up on gas cans.
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