45 Or 50 cal Muzzleloader ???

  • fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11597
    #1982685

    I’ve got a buddy who really wants a Thompson Center Omega in 50 cal. with a stainless barrel. He used mine at the end of last years season and really wants one. He’s done some looking around for one and hasn’t had any luck finding one other than online. He doesn’t want to buy one sight unseen due to the condition of some barrel’s from lack of cleaning and care. He has found a .45 cal Thompson Center Omega brand in the box never fired but it has a blued barrel. He’s willing to buy the new one and trade me even up for mine. Keep in mind mine is probably 7-8 years old. I really don’t have a problem with the barrel being blued instead of stainless. I’m a little unsure if I like the idea of a 45 cal. Doing a little research it seems a fair amount of Die hard muzzleloader hunters are preferring the 45 cal over the 50. It looks like most bullets for the 45 cal. are in the 200-250 grain range. This seems like more than enough to get the job done and I would think the 45 cal would shoot flatter than the 50 cal. I am curious of what all of your thoughts are on pro’s and con’s of the 45 cal. vs the 50 cal. I would think other than some new bullets and sabots and possibly a cleaning jag nothing else different would be needed. For those of you currently using a 45 cal. what bullets and sabots have you found to work the best for you?

    FishBlood&RiverMud
    Prescott
    Posts: 6687
    #1982697

    You can go either way.

    CVA Wolf’s for $100 shoot incredible groups too.

    I highly, and i mean highly, recommend:

    barnes expander spitfire t-ez 250

    I actually shoot the Barnes Expander MZ for the first shot and my follow up shots are with the spitfire T-EZ.
    Identical ballistics between the two, but the MZ you cannot shoot twice without cleaning the barrel.
    Both need a little bore butter for the loads to fit.
    You can load two T-EZ after a MZ, but you wont get in a 3rd T-EZ without cleaning.

    You get excellent compression and of course the killing power of an all copper bullet.

    I know they are available in 50 cal, and i can only assume 45 too.

    I wouldn’t wipe my azz with a powerbelt.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1982699

    On the 45 I’d find out what the twist rate is on the rifling and if its faster than 1:30, meaning 1:28, 1:20, I’d take the .45 in a heart beat. A 200 grain XTP is murder on deer as is a 195 grain XPB Barnes, both in 40 cal. The Omega comes compatible with the BH209 semi-smokeless powder and makes for a real nice load to shoot out to 200 yards. With eitherof those bullets in a .45 one can expect accuracy of 1″ or less at 100 yards. 90 grains by volume would be a good starting charge using a harvester blue sabot with either bullet. Most guys find the sweet spot between the 90 grains and 110 grains.

    The .45 will do heavy lead bullets to about 500/600 grains, cast to or sized to the bore diameter but that QLA indent at the muzzle may need to be cut off to get the best accuracy if the QLA is one of about 60%of them that’s bored off center to the bore. Sabotted bullets suffer nothing from the QLA.

    I have CVA Kodiak in .45 cal and I shoot the 90 grain charge and the 195 grain XPBs into an inch all day.

    In response to FBRM, bore butter is never needed with a sabot bullet combo, nor is cleaning an issue for follow up shots using the BH209 powder. T7 pellets and granular powder as well as Pyrodex pellets and granular powder are filthy shooters and can mess up a barrel after one shot so that a second load can hardly be forced down the pipe. At the gun club shoot upwards of 30 rounds thru my gun using the Bh209 powder and have no issue with reload ease. Actually, the 209 residue is sort of greasy and facilitates second and subsequent shots.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11597
    #1982706

    On the 45 I’d find out what the twist rate is on the rifling and if its faster than 1:30, meaning 1:28, 1:20, I’d take the .45 in a heart beat. A 200 grain XTP is murder on deer as is a 195 grain XPB Barnes, both in 40 cal. The Omega comes compatible with the BH209 semi-smokeless powder and makes for a real nice load to shoot out to 200 yards. With eitherof those bullets in a .45 one can expect accuracy of 1″ or less at 100 yards. 90 grains by volume would be a good starting charge using a harvester blue sabot with either bullet. Most guys find the sweet spot between the 90 grains and 110 grains.

    The .45 will do heavy lead bullets to about 500/600 grains, cast to or sized to the bore diameter but that QLA indent at the muzzle may need to be cut off to get the best accuracy if the QLA is one of about 60%of them that’s bored off center to the bore. Sabotted bullets suffer nothing from the QLA.

    I have CVA Kodiak in .45 cal and I shoot the 90 grain charge and the 195 grain XPBs into an inch all day.

    From all the research I’ve done it looks like the twist rate is 1:28. So it sounds like it should good gun and trade

    deertracker
    Posts: 9107
    #1982707

    I shoot a .50 cal Thompson Center Pro Hunter FX. Even though I shoot a .50 cal, the bullet I shoot is a .44 caliber 300 grain Hornady HPXTP with green harvestor crush rib sabot. This does amazing damage and groups awesome.
    DT

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11597
    #1982713

    You can go either way.

    I wouldn’t wipe my azz with a powerbelt.

    I’ll count you in the Powerbelt Hate group. It seems people are either in the love or hate group on them. I know friends who have had great success with them and will never shoot anything else. I will have to say I never had any problems with them. All 5 or 6 deer that I shot with them were recovered and most in a rather short distance from impact. I also have a few friends who have had poor success with them. I think the reason why so many use them and like them is the ease they load and how many you can shoot between cleaning. They also tend to shoot consistent groups. I doubt I will go back to shooting them myself but you never know if I get this new 45. If I cant get anything else to group I may have to give them a try.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11597
    #1982719

    90 grains by volume would be a good starting charge using a harvester blue sabot with either bullet. Most guys find the sweet spot between the 90 grains and 110 grains.

    Tom – Is it the Harvester crushed ribs sabots the one you would use? If you had to chose between the XTP or XPB bullet, Which one would you recommend I start with?

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1982733

    I have three guns that I hunt with: a .50 cal CVA Accura V2 that uses a .45 cal XPB in a black crush rib sabot. The .45 cal CVA Kodiac uses the 195 grain .40 cal Barnes Expander in the plain blue Harvester sabot. My Optima CVA .50 cal pistol uses a .44 cal XPB Barnes on a green crush
    rib Harvester sabot. Smooth sabots are the starting point in sabots and if your gun loads stiff with a smooth sabot, then use a crush rib and you’ll usually find them a bit nicer to play with. MMP makes a line of several sabot options as well and the three petal often offers some bit of relaxed loading pressure. But to clarify here, sabots are loaded dry, absolutely nothing on them as far as lubricants goes. And Bore Butter is one of the worst of all patching lubes ever put on the market for blackpowder use. Don’t ever put that stuff in any part of an in-line or side lock or black powder revolver of any kind. Just don’t even buy the stuff.

    I’ll add this here about the BH209 powder: this is a semi-smokeless powder, nitro based, so it cleans up with a couple patches damped with the same solvent you’d use on your handguns or centerfire weapons. ALL other black powders and subs are heavily sulpher based and require hot water clean up. 209 powder is a snap at clean up time.

    All three of these guns shoot the XTP bullets just fine with the same exact charges the XPB bullets use with zero adjustment needed at the sight it distances. I can literally switch bullets and not see any change in point of impact. The difference and my preference is to the Barnes bullets, First, the are solid copper….no lead whatever. Secondly they expand into a flower at a much lower velocity and third, they shoot significantly flatter beyond the sight in distance. On deer, I suggest the XPBs.

    On the Powerbelts. The bullets are soft, pure lead that’s been copper plated, not copper jacketed. When pushed at higher muzzleloader velocities they’ll grenade when connecting to soft tissues, often so bad that there is little left to punch thru bone line a shoulder blade. I’ve seen entire front shoulders turned to mush on the outside of the animal with not so much as a minor fracture to the shoulder bone. Many of these issues come from people choosing to shoot pellets instead of granular powder. Generally they’re shooting two or three 50 grain pellets or two 60 grain “magnum” pellets and the velocities achieved by these loads at common deer shooting distances is just too much for soft lead projectiles…often in the 1800 to 2000 fps range. The pellets don’t allow for loads to be somewhere in between 50, 100, 120 or 150 grains and way too many people think that loading to the max is the best medicine. NOT! Personally I’d like to see pellets come off the market because they just foster lazy shooters. The Powerbelts are fine as long as they are not run down range at over about 1400fps.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1982735

    I shoot a .50 cal Thompson Center Pro Hunter FX. Even though I shoot a .50 cal, the bullet I shoot is a .44 caliber 300 grain Hornady HPXTP with green harvestor crush rib sabot. This does amazing damage and groups awesome.
    DT

    I know DT shoots this load successfully, as I have myself. When looking for bullets of the XTP ilk, just be certain that you do not grab those XTPs marked as MAGNUM bullets. You want the plain old XTP bullets. The magnum variety are very hard to get to expand properly at muzzleloader velocities under 2000fps.

    Coletrain27
    Posts: 4789
    #1982805

    I’ve only ever shot Power belts in my CVA with 100 grains of pellets and never been a problem for me. I don’t remember what grain bullet off the top of my head but I know they were on the heavier side.

    MNdrifter
    Posts: 1671
    #1982849

    Not sure if it’s still law, but if you decide to hunt big game in some western states I know theres a few that required a 50 caliber bullet.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1982885

    Many western states will require at least a .50 cal. Some will require only #11 cal or musket cap ignition which can determine which powder you can use. Some state might even restrict bullet use to non-jacketed of lead free. Lots of funky laws in western states especially for elk. Only iron sights are mandated in some states or scopes of 1 power magnification or less.

    Deer and black bear are pretty easily dispatched with a .45 cal. Loaded right, a .45 cal pushing a near 200 grain bullet at close to 2300fps is high power rifle type of stuff. Personally I am on the fence whether elk should be taken with a .45, even with heavy lead in the equation. What looks good on paper for projected ballistics is far removed from what terminal performance on a large animal can be. On a target range though one would be hard pressed to find a muzzle loader caliber more accurate than a .45 cal. There are countless records set for long distance [600 to 1000 yards] shooting and many tournaments are shot and won each year using .45 cal muzzleloading rifles.

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13313
    #1982904

    I shoot a 50 Traditions 1:28 250 gt Thor (Barnes) @118 blackthorn 209/federal 209 primer. I forgot what it was over the chrony, but regardless the impact is pure devastation. At 150yrds it’s about 1” ish groups. I swab between shots and clean about every 10.

    Because of some western rules, I went 50 and quick release on my optics. So I don’t have much to offer in regards to the 45.

    I poked a few rounds yesterday at 200yrds and was very pleased with the combo I have

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    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1982914

    50s shoot, no doubt. Last fall on the last day of my season I poked a doe for the nephew, off hand, that ranged at 168 yards. Clear clean woods, radical downhill though….one goes down on his a$$, no such thing as walking. 250 grain XPB pushed by 77 weighed grains of blackhorn [110 by volume measure].
    Double lung, heart, in-out. The gun sighted at 100 put the bullet on the same point of aim at the 168. On the flat at 200 the bullets print only about 2″ low.

    At my age elk are out of the picture now but I’ll be climbing the mountain again this fall for my deer. The Accura 50 goes the first two days, then I’ll be carrying the Optima pistol.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11597
    #1982948

    Thanks for all the Info. guys. I’m going to make the trade deal with my buddy if the 45 cal checks out good when he goes to look at it this afternoon. He really wants my 50 cal with the stainless barrel and I think I’ll like the 45 cal with the blued barrel just fine ( Something new to play with ) I know after using it last season I’m going to go with the BH209 for sure. I really liked the cleanup with it and I seemed to get many more shots between a full cleaning. One thing I did learn that I did not like about the BH209 powder is that if you are going to load your measured powder into plastic tubes you better wipe the inside of the tubes with a dryer sheet prior to filling them. If not the powder will stick rather bad to the walls of the tube’s. Its sounds like 100 grains by volume is a good starting point. I’m going to try and find or order the XPB in 195 as well as the Harvester sabot.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1982961

    Fishthumper….

    Dryer sheets work miracles in the plastic charge tubes and on any funnels of scale pans you might use. Don’t forget the wipe the measure while its fully extended too.

    Another little tidbit for you regarding the 209 powder. Buy a GOOD volume measure [brass] that will go to at least 120 grains. Use it religiously to measure your powder charges. Pout in the powder until level, do tap or shake. Then pour into the plastic charge tubes. If you decide to weigh your charges be mindful that a weighed charge of BH209 is 70% of a measured charge: 70 grains weighed =100 grains measured…. 63=90, 70=100, 77=110, 84=120 and that the maximum load regardless of how you measure/weigh is always 120/84 grains in any currently available shelf sold rifle unless specifically stated in the literature that comes with the gun. BH209 is an entirely different animal than true black or other subs.

    For charge tubes try facebook by typing in lanestubes. The smaller ones is what I use and they fill right to the top with 120 grains by volume. Cheap. Effective and handy. The BH209 tubes on sees in advertising and for sale are horrendously inaccurate for measuring the powder.

    Check midwayusa.com or natchezss.com for the bullets looking under pistol bullets. Sabots will be found at each site as well as at Cabelas.

    Scheels has the powder. Cabelas is a rip off on the powder.

    FishBlood&RiverMud
    Prescott
    Posts: 6687
    #1982964

    In response to FBRM, bore butter is never needed with a sabot bullet combo, nor is cleaning an issue for follow up shots using the BH209 powder. T7 pellets and granular powder as well as Pyrodex pellets and granular powder are filthy shooters and can mess up a barrel after one shot so that a second load can hardly be forced down the pipe.

    Correct, I use 150 gr pyro for best shoulder kapow action. Dirty for sure.
    She barks!!

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11597
    #1982993

    Fishthumper….
    Buy a GOOD volume measure [brass] that will go to at least 120 grains. Use it religiously to measure your powder charges. Pout in the powder until level, do tap or shake.
    The BH209 tubes on sees in advertising and for sale are horrendously inaccurate for measuring the powder.

    I did buy a nice brass measurer that measures up to 120 grains last year on your advice

    Are you saying DO tap or DO NOT tap or shake???? I’m assuming you are saying DO NOT.

    I did buy the BH209 tubes last year but don’t use the measurement markings on the tubes. I total rely on the brass measurer

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