$120+ billion for Ukraine

A nuclear exchange would allow the 2024 elections to be suspended.
The Ukraine borders mean nothing to me.
The lives being lost is inexcusable.

I watched the segment on Ukraine funding on 60 Minutes tonight. Three senators (both democrat and republican) currently visiting Ukraine said that our American taxpayer dollars going there “is the best money we’ve spent since we funded Churchill in world war 2 against the Nazis.”

Foreign aid should be doled out after the US has taken care of its own needs first…

On another note, maybe the US should tell the countries that the scammers are operating from, that their aid money given to them annually will be withheld until they effectively shut the scammers capabilities down… Kinda like when Biden told a particular country that he’d wasn’t gonna release their monies unless they fired a certain prosecutor, which they did… I think you’d see the same fast results…

I really don’t think Russia really wants to win or end this war quickly. I think if that was truly their purpose this would have been over really quickly. No matter how much money the US or any other country would throw at it. From the reports I’ve seen, Russia has a rather small overall % of their military involved at this point. You would think if it was really about winning. They would throw everything they have into it. I truly believe there is far more going on behind this war than everyone thinks. Just like there is in most wars.

Civilian casualties only shows putin is a monster, and needs to be stopped.

But there seems to be something really greasy here, I’m all for aid but good grief, when does it end and why isn’t there more pressure put on other countries to step in. Conspiracy theory alert! If I’m ukraine or any other country with a decent intelligence wing I can’t imagine the dirt they’d have on hunter biden thru his addiction phase, people get sloppy in those times that would provide extremely useful for any government to have over a senator/vice president/presidential candidate/president.

Fisbthumper, not sure where u get your info but most sources show russia has piled most of their force to ukraine. 97% according to some….

Deuces wrote:

Civilian casualties only shows putin is a monster, and needs to be stopped.

But there seems to be something really greasy here, I’m all for aid but good grief, when does it end and why isn’t there more pressure put on other countries to step in. Conspiracy theory alert! If I’m ukraine or any other country with a decent intelligence wing I can’t imagine the dirt they’d have on hunter biden thru his addiction phase, people get sloppy in those times that would provide extremely useful for any government to have over a senator/vice president/presidential candidate/president.

Fisbthumper, not sure where u get your info but most sources show russia has piled most of their force to ukraine. 97% according to some….

Russia is “all-in”

They just don’t have the military capabilities that everyone thought they did.

biggill wrote:

The company I work for has built north of 500 units used on Abrams tanks in the past couple years and our involvement will only help our economy.

Unfortunately the huge downside is the fat cats connected to the military industrial complex are the ones who will benefit the most. At least this time it isn’t at the cost of American lives.

So you’re pro Military Industrial Complex because it will only help our economy? That’s the whole bit Eisenhower warned about (start around 7 minutes in): https://youtu.be/OyBNmecVtdU?si=PM4F-UGP1Oq9kWLk

biggill wrote:

Keep in mind, we’ve always supported Ukraine. The scale of this support is unprecedented but we’ve always supported them with supplies and equipment.

By always, you mean since we funded the coup in 2014? Or the minimal amount we were giving them from when the USSR dissolved in 1991? Because we certainly weren’t financially supporting Ukraine pre-1991, and from 1991-2014 were giving them a relatively tiny amount of funding.

I’m no fan of Putin. But the media and Military industrial complex has made him out to be a madmen hellbent on power and war, with no acknowledgement of the US and NATO’s role in the 2014 Coup, nor NATO expanding toward Russia’s borders despite our promises not to. Meanwhile this proxy war is pushing us (meaning the world) closer to nuclear annihilation than we have been since the Bay of Pigs. Somehow in 3 years the Leftists have become the biggest cheerleaders of the Military Industrial Complex and Big Pharma. Pretty shocking really.

Here’s some relevant links to my previous post: https://youtube.com/shorts/S4hzy5yyNxc?si=6yr6BRXsoO5kHOcJ

And the Gideon Rose interview that explains exactly what we did, that caused the situation we are currently in:
https://www.cc.com/video/8067fc/the-colbert-report-crisis-in-ukraine-gideon-rose

BigWerm wrote:

I’m no fan of Putin. But the media and Military industrial complex has made him out to be a madmen hellbent on power and war, with no acknowledgement of the US and NATO’s role in the 2014 Coup, nor NATO expanding toward Russia’s borders despite our promises not to. Meanwhile this proxy war is pushing us (meaning the world) closer to nuclear annihilation than we have been since the Bay of Pigs. Somehow in 3 years the Leftists have become the biggest cheerleaders of the Military Industrial Complex and Big Pharma. Pretty shocking really.

So which is it?

There are 433 million guns in the US. It is only natural that we are a military industrial complex. A billion dollars to mess with the Russian seems like money well spent. When the Soviet Union came down it was a culture war that we won. Our culture is burnt and roont so we may as well support another nation of people that can at least be proud of their nationality and culture. A drop in the bucket.

biggill wrote:

So which is it?

Quite a few countries have the ability for Nuclear annihilation, including the only country to every use a nuclear bomb (USA), so we should act accordingly and try and avoid that. Seems pretty simple I thought, but I understand your conflict of interest being on the take.

Deuces wrote:

Fisbthumper, not sure where u get your info but most sources show russia has piled most of their force to ukraine. 97% according to some…

If that is the case, then things have really changed in the last few months. A few months ago reports had it at less than 50% of their available forces involved. If Russia has 97% of their forces involved in this war and have not ended it, they either don’t want to or are much weaker than was once thought and they are not much to worry about. If they are thought to be the 2nd most powerful military in the world and have their full military force involved in this war and can not end it. Then the US and most other countries have nothing to fear from them.

BigWerm wrote:

nor NATO expanding toward Russia’s borders despite our promises not to.

NATO’s push to get Ukraine to become part of NATO is about the same as Canada Becoming partners with Russia and allowing them to place their troops all along our border. How would everyone here feel if that was the case. From Russia’s standpoint this is about the same.

fishthumper wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BigWerm wrote:</div>
nor NATO expanding toward Russia’s borders despite our promises not to.

NATO’s push to get Ukraine to become part of NATO is about the same as Canada Becoming partners with Russia and allowing them to place their troops all along our border. How would everyone here feel if that was the case. From Russia’s standpoint this is about the same.

Not quite.

Not even remotely close.

That’s not even comparing apples and oranges. You’re comparing apples and asteroids.

gim wrote:

Yes, but Ukraine is not a NATO member. If Russia invaded a standing member of NATO, the response would be much different. NATO members would actually engage Russia in military combat.

As I said in the previous paragraph…

gim wrote:

In addition I don’t think many understand the whole picture. What if we sit on our hands and wait for an emboldened Putin to decide that since invading Ukraine was a rousing success and met no resistance, he now wants to mount another “special military operation” to take part of Poland or Eastern Germany?

Choosing to do nothing about Ukraine could have dire consequences if it serves to reinforce Putin’s idea that we won’t confront him.

Also, Putin seems to be very much in love with his strategy of invading only part of a country or region under the pretext that that region is “part of Russia” anyway. Essentially gambling that nobody will risk a conflict with Russia over just part of a region or country when it’s much easier and less risky to just sell that region down the river and trust that Putin won’t come back for more. As he did in Ukraine…

The problem is what if his next move were to continue this strategy by grabbing, say, “only” half of Poland. Or part of eastern Germany?

Where have we seen this movie before? Putin is not a great original thinker, but rather a good student of bad dictators. Hitler pulled this exact move when he annexed Czechoslovakia, first calling it by its German name, Sudetenland, and using the same tactic of stating that the invasion was justified because it was really part of Germany anyway and the people there were really Germans who were held prisoner of the Czech state against their will.

And we saw how this all ended when the spineless British PM Neville Chamberlain bought into the idea that he could appease a dictator. Putin would never stop at just Ukraine either. His whole power base is built on the idea that Russia is a victim of Western aggression and he’s just “righting” wrongs that have been done to deprive Russia of her rightful territory.

When dealing with a POS like Putin, we are presented with a lot of decisions that we would rather not make. He’s counting on this.

Not sure why it shows that I said that second paragraph you quoted Grouse. I didn’t post that. Regardless.

Would have been way cheaper if we took care of this problem before it started. We should have told Russia if they cross the border to start this frivolous wor NATO would lite them up like the 4th of JULY…… DONE…. Bet we will be in this for many years just like Afghanistan going to cost us 100 Trillion by the time its done if that ever happens.

supercat wrote:

I guess I don’t understand politics nor do I want to. I am all for helping people out but jeez if I was in debt like we are why do we keep throwing debt on??

Because it isn’t the politicians money. It is yours and mine. Also, part of that is coming back to these same politicians. It is basically just a place to launder tax dollars. They don’t really care about Ukraine, they care about getting rich off the taxpayer and they are able to hide their corruption by washing it through Ukraine first.

buckybadger wrote:

Not quite.

Not even remotely close.

That’s not even comparing apples and oranges. You’re comparing apples and asteroids.

How so. What exactly do you think NATO”S big push is for wanting Ukraine to join NATO so bad. Do you think if Ukraine was to join NATO that they would not want to establish some military presence there. In your mind it is totally different. I don’t think that is the case for Russians

BigWerm wrote:

Quite a few countries have the ability for Nuclear annihilation, including the only country to every use a nuclear bomb (USA), so we should act accordingly and try and avoid that. Seems pretty simple I thought, but I understand your conflict of interest being on the take.

Agree. And that’s exactly what we’re doing. Letting Russia advance is a far far greater risk of nuclear annihilation.

IF Russia succeeds, the chances of us getting directly involved in stopping their March forward go up significantly. There’s plenty of people north of Richmond that are salivating over a possible conflict that would feed the MIC for decades. Or until the end of humanity.

I was wrong when I said it was an international chess match. It’s an international poker game where everyone is cheating.

People need to stop saying “Russia” when talking about invasion of Ukraine and replace that with “potentially revitalized Soviet Union”.

fishthumper wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>buckybadger wrote:</div>
Not quite.

Not even remotely close.

That’s not even comparing apples and oranges. You’re comparing apples and asteroids.

How so. What exactly do you think NATO”S big push is for wanting Ukraine to join NATO so bad. Do you think if Ukraine was to join NATO that they would not want to establish some military presence there. In your mind it is totally different. I don’t think that is the case for Russians

You tried to compare Russia putting troops along the Canadian/US border to what is going on in Ukraine. Last I checked we haven’t had any modern military conflicts with Canada, while Ukraine and Russia clearly have.

Ukraine is seeking help in remaining a sovereign, democratic nation while Putin invades their territory. Putin has demonstrated he is a threat to Ukraine in the past and is currently invading their country. The aid coming to Ukraine or anti Russia stance of NATO wasn’t just drawn up overnight, as your failed comparison involving Canada would be.

biggill wrote:

Letting Russia advance is a far far greater risk of nuclear annihilation.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

The problem is what if his next move were to continue this strategy by grabbing, say, “only” half of Poland. Or part of eastern Germany?

I don’t see what this is based off of, other than a “Putin is an evil dictator intent on ruling and/or ruining the world” narrative. And again I agree he is an evil dictator, but he is not an idiot and as far as I have seen/read has no intention of invading NATO countries or using nuclear weapons, he wants to reclaim what he views as theirs and stop further NATO expansion to nearly the entirety of his Western border (save Belarus and Finland).

Putin is pushing back on NATO’s expansion to his borders, which again is in violation of what Gorbachev and Yeltsin seemed to believe (albeit questionably) was agreed upon in the early 1990’s. Subsequently in 1999 NATO admitted Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary, then in 2004 NATO underwent the largest expansion in its history, admitting seven more Eastern European countries, including the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, which had been republics of the Soviet Union. So it’s a combination of Russia viewing NATO/the West of not honoring their word on eastward expansion, and Putin not bending over to the West like he views Gorbachev and Yeltsin did. Then the US funding the Ukrainian coup in 2014 was the final straw, and Putin was set on invading once he felt the time was right.

Invading beyond Ukraine would end him, and Russia in short order, which could very possibly end the world, by his nukes or ours. So these hypotheticals are not based on the actual history of the region, nor our role in antagonizing it, nor anything Putin has said or threatened to do.

fishthumper wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>buckybadger wrote:</div>
Not quite.

Not even remotely close.

That’s not even comparing apples and oranges. You’re comparing apples and asteroids.

How so. What exactly do you think NATO”S big push is for wanting Ukraine to join NATO so bad. Do you think if Ukraine was to join NATO that they would not want to establish some military presence there. In your mind it is totally different. I don’t think that is the case for Russians

Ukraine has sought NATO, not the other way around. They applied for a NATO MAP in 2008.

I am not sure where you are getting your incorrect information

buckybadger wrote:

Ukraine has sought NATO, not the other way around. They applied for a NATO MAP in 2008.

I am not sure where you are getting your incorrect information

I’m not sure where you are getting your Info. Ukraine has been offered entry into Nato several times. They have rejected those offers each time. The last time being in 2010. In fact Polls conducted between 2005 and 2013 found low support among Ukrainians for NATO membership. It wasn’t till 9/30/2022 that Ukraine Applied to join NATO. This wasn’t till after the current war started in Feb. of 2022. There had been lots of pressure from NATO for many years for Ukraine to join NATO. I’m sure Ukraine knew as soon as they joined NATO that a war with Russia would happen. They also new even with NATO support that their country would probably end up suffering lots of Damage and loss lives. So even if NATO and Ukraine would end up winning the war they would suffer the most.

Had a economics teacher auction off a dollar bill and he made money!
Bid what you want (bids started at .25) but you agree that if your bid is #2 you pay that and get nothing. Pride drove the bids, nobody wanted to pay and get nothing, so even the #1 bids were over 5 bucks. The point at the time was Vietnam. Have to know when to get out, cut your losses.
That said we should continue to support & I believe be more committed to this struggle, Nato as a whole should invest dollars & troops, Russia is waiting us out.
BTW, my teacher did not take money from any of us.

My games theory teacher taught us about Vietnam in a physical exersize where student aids acted as farmers, insurgents, and NVA. We used nerf balls to determine who was “dead”. If you hit a farmer you were guilty of a war crime. I had two fellow students ask the teacher if Cambodia could get into nato, and while she was distracted killed everyone in a mass genocide. I reminded her that as a realist I was above so called international law. I got an A-.

Exersize ? Should have skipped games and went to spelling instead. Uh-oh… it’s the spelling police !!!

Yeah technically I think its “Aides” as well but whatevs.